How to fight against this system: 1. Nf3 2. g3 3. Bg2 4. 0-0 5. d3 6. Bg5 7. Nbd2 8. c3 9. Qc2 10. e4

Hello.

I was wondering what to do against someone who always play this system as White:

1. Nf3
2. g3
3. Bg2
4. 0-0
5. d3
6. Bg5
7. Nbd2
8. c3
9. Qc2
10. e4

And he will always answer ...h6 with Bxf6



Surely by playing this White completely gives away his first move advantage, probably Black can even gain a slight advantage.

I’m a 1700 Elo player.
My Black opening repertoire consist of the Caro-Kann and the Slav Chebanenko/Chameleon (but I also know the Sicilian Najdorf and the Benko Gambit, though I have abandoned these two openings two years ago).
And I prefer quiet and strategic positions.
So what would you suggest me to do against that system?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Originally posted by Marc Benford
Hello.

I was wondering what to do against someone who always play this system as White:

1. Nf3
2. g3
3. Bg2
4. 0-0
5. d3
6. Bg5
7. Nbd2
8. c3
9. Qc2
10. e4

And he will always answer ...h6 with Bxf6

[fen]rnbqkb1r/pppppppp/5n2/6B1/4P3/2PP1NP1/PPQN1PBP/R4RK1 b kq - 0 10[/fen]

Surely by playing this White completely gives away his fi ...[text shortened]...
So what would you suggest me to do against that system?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Of course you're having difficulties, you let white get a 10:1 move advantage.
Make a move after he moves every time.
Don't make me slap you. 😛
Send me a game, I'll take black and you play this unbeatable system against me. I'll give it a go. 😛

Originally posted by Marc Benford
...
1. Nf3 2. g3 3. Bg2 4. 0-0 5. d3 6. Bg5 7. Nbd2 8. c3 9. Qc2 10. e4
...

This formation bears similarities to what might transpire in the Leningrad Bird, though a significant difference is that White cannot play Bg5 with a wPf4.

Originally posted by Marc Benford
Hello.

I was wondering what to do against someone who always play this system as White:

1. Nf3
2. g3
3. Bg2
4. 0-0
5. d3
6. Bg5
7. Nbd2
8. c3
9. Qc2
10. e4

And he will always answer ...h6 with Bxf6

[fen]rnbqkb1r/pppppppp/5n2/6B1/4P3/2PP1NP1/PPQN1PBP/R4RK1 b kq - 0 10[/fen]

Surely by playing this White completely gives away his fi ...[text shortened]...
So what would you suggest me to do against that system?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

This is a standard King's Indian Attack, although the Bg5 move is unusual.

Like any other opening, it is good against some defenses and less so against others.

Bobby Fischer used it as a weapon against the French and the Sicilian with ...e6 from time to time, and produced beautiful games with it (here he arrives at the standard position by move 8 from the 1. e4 move order.) Fischer used the 1. Nf3 move order until 1962 when he switched to the 1. e4 move order.




In terms of the Caro Kann, I suggest you look at the games of GM Vastimil Hort against the King's Indian Attack.

He had a running debate over the position against Leonid Stein in the 1960's, but here is a nice draw against Fischer's KIA in 1970, when Fischer was near his peak:




And I think you should consider playing some games here, where you would be able to apply and practice what you learn!

Hi Marc,

Without seeing any games to judge your strength I doubt if anyone can help.
You say you are a quiet positional strategic player graded 1700.

It is my experience that these 'quiet positional strategic players graded
1700 and under get walloped with two a penny tactics.

If you like the Caro Kann/Slav set-up go for d5 and c6.
Or you can copy them and play from here.



But an even better way of dealing with these feckless cowering 1.Nf3
2.g3 3.Bg2 types is to get torn into them.

Meet 1.Nf3 with 1...Nc6. This can lead to the Chigorin and someone
will tell you theory does not like it and produce a GM game to prove it.
You will get a book on the Chigorin full of GM games that may put you off.

1700 players don't play GM's. You will be playing and learning your trade
v fellow 1700 players. 1700 players who sneak out 1.Nf3 becuase they
have neither the time or inclination to study opening theory.

Sac you a8 Rook for his g2 Bishop and mate him.

jcozec - greenpawn RHP 2011

Thanks for your answers and thanks for showing me these cool games.
So it seems that there is no direct way of refuting that system.
And it would also seem that playing c6 and d5 is a good idea against it.

I was thinking of getting a position with:
- Pawns on c6, d5 and e6
- My light squared Bishop out of the Pawn chain on f5 and then on h7
- Playing …h6 in order to deny him the possibility of exchanging his Knight for my Bishop with Nh4, and also to force him to exchange his g5 Bishop for my Knight

But I’m not exactly sure how precisely I plan to do that.
The problem is that I need to delay playing …Bf5 and …h6 and …e6, because if I play …h6 too soon he won’t have time to place his Bishop on g5 (and so he won’t exchange it for my Knight, just like I wish), and if I play …e6 too soon he will get the opportunity to trade his Knight for my Bishop with Nh4 (which I want to avoid). So I believe I will need to insert useful developing moves like …Nbd7 and/or …Qc7.

So I was thinking about playing something like that:
(I’m absolutely not sure about the move order&hellip😉
1. Nf3 d5
2. g3 Nf6
3. Bg2 c6
4. 0-0 Bf5
5. d3 Nbd7
6. Bg5 h6
7. Bxf6 Nxf6
8. Nbd2 e6
9. c3 Bh7
10. Qc2



And then I’m hesitating between …Be7 and …Bd6 – which do you think is better in this kind of position?
I was thinking that …Be7 might be better than …Bd6 because on d6 the Bishop would just be biting at g3 and most importantly when he’ll play e4 my Bishop might be harassed with threats of forks on e5 (and if I just play …dxe4 then my Bishop would just be obstructing an open file).

After that I believe I would just play …0-0 followed by …Qc7.

But after all that, what should my plan be in this position? Getting a queenside attack going? And the moves to consider would be …a5, …b5, …Rac8 and …Rfd8 I guess?

And when he’ll play e4, what should I do? Should I just respond 1…dxe4 2. Nxe4 Nxe4 3. dxe4 Rfd8 or is there no need to take immediately?

Originally posted by Marc Benford
Thanks for your answers and thanks for showing me these cool games.
So it seems that there is no direct way of refuting that system.
And it would also seem that playing c6 and d5 is a good idea against it.

I was thinking of getting a position with:
- Pawns on c6, d5 and e6
- My light squared Bishop out of the Pawn chain on f5 and then on h7
- Pl ...[text shortened]... Should I just respond 1…dxe4 2. Nxe4 Nxe4 3. dxe4 Rfd8 or is there no need to take immediately?

You are over-thinking this. Big time.

White is basically letting you do whatever you want, without posing any problems for you. You can play any setup against this system that does not outright hang material and it will probably be fine.

You should not worry for one second about facing this system as black. You should be happy when white plays slowly and meekly from move 1.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You are over-thinking this. Big time.

White is basically letting you do whatever you want, without posing any problems for you. You can play any setup against this system that does not outright hang material and it will probably be fine.

You should not worry for one second about facing this system as black. You should be happy when white plays slowly and meekly from move 1.

I dunno SG. He doesn't move on this site. He hardly moved in the OP. Perhaps if he moved he might do better. 😞

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
I dunno SG. He doesn't move on this site. He hardly moved in the OP. Perhaps if he moved he might do better. 😞

much like "a bad plan is better than no plan at all" I am starting to think "a bad move is better than no move at all"

Originally posted by SilverStorm
much like "a bad plan is better than no plan at all" I am starting to think "a bad move is better than no move at all"

Oh, no. Especially not bad pawn moves. You cannot undo them.

Originally posted by SilverStorm
much like "a bad plan is better than no plan at all" I am starting to think "a bad move is better than no move at all"

If you don't move at all, you'll timeout. You can't win a game you timed out in. Just ask John Madden
But a horrible move can end the game suddenly. And as SG said the effects of some moves are irreversible.

hmm, then perhaps the best way to beat a weak system opening is a highly balanced strategy of 2/3 bad moves and 1/3 not moving at all.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
1700 players who sneak out 1.Nf3 becuase they
have neither the time or inclination to study opening theory.

I've been found out! 😞