The Crassness of Evidence

Assuming the God as depicted in the Bible is true, is it reasonable to also assume there ought to exist some form of evidence for His existence on this plane?

The God described transcends normative thinking, appears to be outside time/space/creation; can we really expect for there to be any evidence at all?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Assuming the God as depicted in the Bible is true, is it reasonable to also assume there ought to exist some form of evidence for His existence on this plane?

The God described transcends normative thinking, appears to be outside time/space/creation; can we really expect for there to be any evidence at all?

My answers would be no, and no, for reasons I've outlined before.

But the way you put this started me thinking. The questions seem like they have relativistic weight, that is, the answer could change based on the belief status of the answerer.

If one does not believe, then no, there can be no evidence. Yet if one does believe, there can be evidence in abundance.

It's kind of like that phenomenon where before you buy a new car, you never notice how many of that model there are on the streets, but right after you buy a new car, you notice your model everywhere. 🙂

Edit: This is how people see Jesus in their pancake or their tortilla.

Originally posted by Suzianne
My answers would be no, and no, for reasons I've outlined before.

But the way you put this started me thinking. The questions seem like they have relativistic weight, that is, the answer could change based on the belief status of the answerer.

If one does not believe, then no, there can be no evidence. Yet if one does believe, there can be evidence ...[text shortened]... r model everywhere. 🙂

Edit: This is how people see Jesus in their pancake or their tortilla.

I am with the evidence in abundance group. I even consider the Shroud of Turin evidence.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Assuming the God as depicted in the Bible is true, is it reasonable to also assume there ought to exist some form of evidence for His existence on this plane?

The God described transcends normative thinking, appears to be outside time/space/creation; can we really expect for there to be any evidence at all?

I'm an agnostic, so I really don't expect there to be any. Suzianne made a good point in another thread where someone was trying to catch her out in a contradiction. The point she made was that evidence that people claim tends to be individual rather than universal. Since in the Christian conception of God there is a plan that involves saving humanity from itself, some incidences of evidence to individuals might be expected - but this is different from universally acceptable evidence.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Assuming the God as depicted in the Bible is true, is it reasonable to also assume there ought to exist some form of evidence for His existence on this plane?

The God described transcends normative thinking, appears to be outside time/space/creation; can we really expect for there to be any evidence at all?

Absolutely!

Romans 1:19,20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

"The things that are made" "are clearly seen", "so that they are without excuse".

#1. There is no other authority than the Word of God reliable enough for this argument.
#2. Every other argument is generated in the mind of man, whether for or against the existence of God.
#3. There is no number 3. At least I don't think so! 😉

Originally posted by josephw
Absolutely!

Romans 1:19,20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

"The things that are made" "are ...[text shortened]... er for or against the existence of God.
#3. There is no number 3. At least I don't think so! 😉

Atoms and molecules, such as DNA are not clearly seen, but without them there would be nothing that is clearly seen and understood.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Assuming the God as depicted in the Bible is true, is it reasonable to also assume there ought to exist some form of evidence for His existence on this plane?

The God described transcends normative thinking, appears to be outside time/space/creation; can we really expect for there to be any evidence at all?

God as described in the Bible does interact with this 'plane' (whatever you mean by that) and thus we would expect to see evidence of this interaction. Whether or not we could identify that this interaction is evidence of an entity outside of time/space/creation is another matter.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Atoms and molecules, such as DNA are not clearly seen, but without them there would be nothing that is clearly seen and understood.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,.."

Interesting how it is said don't you think? "The invisible things", "are clearly seen", "being understood by the things that are made".

Not only is it known, "by the things that are made", that God exists, but "the invisible things" of God are understood "by the things that are made".

We know "things" about God through creation. "Things" like His goodness and infinite knowledge for example, and His power. Denying God's existence is akin to denying the existence of the universe.

Originally posted by twhitehead
God as described in the Bible does interact with this 'plane' (whatever you mean by that) and thus we would expect to see evidence of this interaction. Whether or not we could identify that this interaction is evidence of an entity outside of time/space/creation is another matter.

"...we would expect to see evidence of this interaction."

You do! Plainly. Perspective is how to identify what you see as evidence for a creator.

I'm not sure how to tell you how to do that. You have to see it from God's perspective.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Assuming the God as depicted in the Bible is true, is it reasonable to also assume there ought to exist some form of evidence for His existence on this plane?

The God described transcends normative thinking, appears to be outside time/space/creation; can we really expect for there to be any evidence at all?

If this so-called "G"od has brought about some manifestation of his otherworldly powers in this plane, then at some point there should also have been some sort of evidence of it.
As an example: your god, if it has the properties you suppose, could interact with this planet now in such way to convince us all that either he exists, or, for the die-hard sceptics, convince us we are all insane. For me in particular, I'd be inclined towards believing he existed if he came down, introduced himself as Bible god, and then got a group of strangers to gather round and film him turning my arm into a dancing banjo (I see no reason why he could not do this) ... that would be pretty compelling to me!

Originally posted by Agerg
If this so-called "G"od has brought about some manifestation of his otherworldly powers in this plane, then at some point there should also have been some sort of evidence of it.
As an example: your god, if it has the properties you suppose, could interact with this planet now in such way to convince us all that either he exists, or, for the die-hard sceptic ...[text shortened]... cing banjo (I see no reason why he could not do this) ... that would be pretty compelling to me!

Be careful of what you wish for...

Originally posted by Agerg
If this so-called "G"od has brought about some manifestation of his otherworldly powers in this plane, then at some point there should also have been some sort of evidence of it.
As an example: your god, if it has the properties you suppose, could interact with this planet now in such way to convince us all that either he exists, or, for the die-hard sceptic ...[text shortened]... cing banjo (I see no reason why he could not do this) ... that would be pretty compelling to me!

God made our sun and all the stars. That shows His might power right there. You say you would be convinced by what others would call a magic trick. Jesus did many miracles, but those that did not wish to believe said he was a sorcerer in league with Beelzebub.

Originally posted by RJHinds
God made our sun and all the stars. That shows His might power right there. You say you would be convinced by what others would call a magic trick. Jesus did many miracles, but those that did not wish to believe said he was a sorcerer in league with Beelzebub.

Nah ... As you are aware that our adversaries here are aware, our contention is that there was that there is no requirement for the universe to have been created by your god. Coming along and saying for them that he was responsible for it doesn't quite cut it as satisfactory evidence. It might cut it for the idiots you are lampooning on these boards but not me ;]

Originally posted by Agerg
Nah ... As you are aware that our adversaries here are aware, our contention is that there was that there is no requirement for the universe to have been created by your god. Coming along and saying for them that he was responsible for it doesn't quite cut it as satisfactory evidence. It might cut it for the idiots you are lampooning on these boards but not me ;]

No explanation is good enough for fools.

Originally posted by twhitehead
God as described in the Bible does interact with this 'plane' (whatever you mean by that) and thus we would expect to see evidence of this interaction. Whether or not we could identify that this interaction is evidence of an entity outside of time/space/creation is another matter.

Given the ephemeral nature of history (lush gardens become deserts, gigantic boulders reduced to sands on the beach, entire societies rise and fall), what testimony or monument would you consider sturdy enough to withstand the ravages of erosive time?