Young Earther cosmology:

Originally posted by menace71
Thanks this is a great explanation that YEers have to contend with. As far as we know there has not been a decay in the speed of C.... My only question as many YEers believe is that God stretched Space-time which there is credence for this ( expansion of space-time) at a rapid pace objects might appear to violate the speed of C then right?

Manny

The problem is this:
We observe a distant galaxy say 100,000 light years away according to say three different methods of measurement.
Situation 1: if physics behaves as normal then it is 100,000 light years away and the light we see left it 100,000 years ago.
Situation 2: light travelled at a different, much faster speed in the past. This would significantly affect many observations and we would be able to determine that it was the case. Our different measurements would no-longer agree with each other as some would be affected by the speed of light and some would not.
Situation 3: space was stretched out at some point in the past but the speed of light has not changed. In this instance not only would there be extreme red-shifting of the light but we must also remember that what we observe is where something was at the time the light left it. So if we observe something to be 100,000 light years away then that is where it was when the light left it, not where it is now. If the galaxy in question was only 6,000 light years away when the light left it, and space expanded since then, then we would observe it to be 6,000 light years away. If we observe it to be 100,000 light years away then that is where it was 100,000 light years ago (taking redshift etc into account in our measurements).
Another critical factor is that the observable matter in the universe would not easily fit into a sphere 6,000 light years in size.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It would put us at the centre of the expansion making us special and there is no good reason to think we are special.

There is not an empirically verifiable reason, to be sure, but the whole point of Genesis is that we are special: the universe was made for us.

It was very difficult for the medieval Church to accept that the Earth is not an immovable flat pancake.

It is just as difficult for Christians today to accept that the universe was not made for us.

'It just happened' leaves a big hole in some people's lives and they grasp at straws to fill it up.

... If the galaxy in question was only 6,000 light years away when the light left it, and space expanded since then, then we would observe it to be 6,000 light years away.
Another critical factor is that the observable matter in the universe would not easily fit into a sphere 6,000 light years in size.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to express earlier, but could not find the right formulation.

Originally posted by twhitehead
...
The second issue would be one of density. If matter were expanding away from us we would expect a significant fall off of density with distance - which we do not observe.

Oh yes, didn't think of that. In fact, we observe the density to be much greater with distance. I suppose you could have without contradiction the galaxies moving away from us without space itself expanding and still have greater density with distance, but only by having a fishy and yet unexplained far far greater number of galaxies moving away from us at the greater speeds rather than the lesser speeds to account for the much lower density in the middle. Thus the less assuming theory would be that space itself expanded (applying Occam's razor) to avoid having to assume the existence of some so far unknown reason for that eccentric movement of galaxies.

I admit I don't have the maths but I do like to think...... Another issue is if the universe was only 6K years old then wouldn't the night sky be blazing with light from all of the stars and objects plus how would this be explained gravitationally?

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I admit I don't have the maths but I do like to think...... Another issue is if the universe was only 6K years old then wouldn't the night sky be blazing with light from all of the stars and objects plus how would this be explained gravitationally?

Manny

Basically it couldn't be explained because that is what would happen, we would have fried long ago. Think of the energy reaching earth if only all the stars in the milky way were within 6000 light years, and we were in the center of that cluster. Say there are 200 billion stars in the milky way, close enough for this. So a cube 6000 light years on a side would be about 200 billion cubic light years so the stars would be something like a half light year apart and we would be getting a hell of a lot of radiation from just that.

Now lets stuff every star in every galaxy into that 200 billion cubic LY cube.There are also about 200 billion galaxies, each one with say 200 billion stars, so that would be about 4 E ^22, I don't even know if there is a name for a number that big,

Anyway, in our 200 billion cubic ly cube, now we have 4 E^22 stars. Divide that and you have 200 billion stars per cubic light year.

One light year is about 6 trillion miles, close enough for this.

In cubic miles, that would be one cubic light year = 2 E^38 cubic miles. Divide that by 200 billion and now we have a star in every cube 1 billion miles on a side. Now, our solar system is about 8 ish billion miles across so it is 512 billion cubic miles of volume more or less. So that would mean we in our solar system alone, would have 512 stars.

Of all varieties. So at Jupiter there would be a star besides our sun at around 100 million miles. But with 500 of those suckers shining here in the space between here and Pluto, I think you can see we would be in serious trouble🙂 And that doesn't count the stars PAST our solar system, thousands of such cubes surrounding our space.

All in all, I am really glad the universe is indeed 14 billion or more light years across!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Situation 3: space was stretched out at some point in the past but the speed of light has not changed. In this instance not only would there be extreme red-shifting of the light but we must also remember that what we observe is where something was at the time the light left it. So if we observe something to be 100,000 light years away then that is where i ...[text shortened]... observable matter in the universe would not easily fit into a sphere 6,000 light years in size.

So if we observe something to be 100,000 light years away then that is where it was when the light left it,

No, this is not correct.

We observe the most distant galaxies to be ~13 billion light years away.

Those galaxies are currently more like ~46 billion ly away.

However they were not 13 billion ly away when they emitted the light we can see.

They were more like ~300,000 ly away.

They look like they are farther away because the space in-between us and them has expanded
so much in the intervening billions of years.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Basically it couldn't be explained because that is what would happen, we would have fried long ago. Think of the energy reaching earth if only all the stars in the milky way were within 6000 light years, and we were in the center of that cluster. Say there are 200 billion stars in the milky way, close enough for this. So a cube 6000 light years on a side wo ...[text shortened]... .

All in all, I am really glad the universe is indeed 14 billion or more light years across!

Makes total sense..... So the YEer has many issues to explain......I believe the universe is indeed very large and very old

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Makes total sense..... So the YEer has many issues to explain......I believe the universe is indeed very large and very old

Manny

I guess I'm a Heretic now

Manny

This won't answer many questions from this thread, but it is on the topic:
YouTube

Originally posted by twhitehead
This won't answer many questions from this thread, but it is on the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES8JV1grbS0

I listened to part of it, interesting guy.

Originally posted by twhitehead
This won't answer many questions from this thread, but it is on the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES8JV1grbS0

I actually watched it..... Guy was humorous at times. I understood most of what he was talking about.

Manny