Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
1) The word given as "forgiveness" from Luke in your translation literally means "freedom".
The passage I quoted from
Luke does not have the English word forgiveness in it at all. It was
Luke 22:20
"And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My blood which is being poured out for you."
Of course there is no possibility that we could be confused about the forgiveness being secured by the shedding of His blood. The entire Old Testament testifies that blood atonement is what He was speaking about even if in that verse He does not use "freedom" or "forgiveness". Why else would the blood of Christ be poured out ?
So I will assume you made a mistake and are talking about the other passage I quoted from the Recovery Version -
Matthew 26:28 which, my English translation
does say -
"for the forgiveness of sins"
I am checking about 30 other translations and notice that every one of them has either
"forgiveness" or
"remission". One has
"release". And one has
"ratification of" the covenant.
The point on "freedom" verses
"forgiveness" or
"remission" I find not very significant. I don't think I'll spend much time arguing over that with you.
2) In John 6 Jesus also speaks of "eating", "bread", "body/flesh", "drinking" and "blood". wherein Jesus uses the metaphor of "eating flesh", "drinking blood" to refer to " the words that I have spoken to you". In short, one "eats" and "drinks" His words so that they will abide in Him.
I am fully aware that when the disciples inquired about the difficulty of these sayings Jesus pointed to the words which He speaks which are spirit and life.
" It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (v. 63)
I won't spend much time debating about this now. Except I would say that it could not possibly mean that Jesus took His DEATH to not be profitable. The garden of Gethsemane temptation utterly proves that He regarded His shedding of His blood as terribly significant. It was the moment of His greatest battle.
And it was the cup from the Father which He refused to FAIL to drink. He would do the will of His Father to redeem man with the shedding of His blood.
Please do not try to tell us that
John 6:63 shows that He did not regard His laying down His life as profitable for our forgiveness.
3) In John 15 Jesus explains that "abiding" in Him entails "keep[ing] His commandments" (words).
"Abide in Me and I in you" is ITSELF a commandment.
I do not argue at all that to abide in Him needs our obedience.
It is an unusual and extraordinary command. It is to abide in Him so that He may abide in us. He commands then that we allow Him to live in us. If you do not believe that He is alive you cannot abide in Him.
But if you don't believe He is Who He is you will die in your sins, period.
So the first instance of obeying Him is to believe in Him to be joined to Him.
" Therefore I said to you that you will die in our sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)
If you do not believe that He rose from the dead and is your Lord, you will die in your sins and perish forever. If you believe into Him your judgment already took place on His cross at Calvary.
Sins will be judged. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.
You are in danger if you cannot confess "Lord God, my sins have been judged in the death of Christ according to Your word and Your promise."
4) In John 8 Jesus explain that those who "abide in [His] words" will be made "free" from committing sin.
I do not argue that
John 8 speaks of being made free and free indeed. And I would add that Revelation says we are LOOSED or RELEASED from our sins
"by His blood".
" And from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood." (Rev. 1:5)
You must forget about attempting to use the New Testament to teach against the New Testament concerning the redeeming blood, the releasing blood of Christ.
So when Jesus tells them to eat His body (flesh) and drink His blood, He is really speaking of them eating and drinking His words just as He does in John 6.
I have already said verse 63 emphasizes His words. And Peter in the same chapter says that they have nowhere else to go because Jesus has the words of eternal life.
The fact of the matter is that sinful man is alienated from the life of God
(Eph. 4:18). He CANNOT abide in Christ until his sins have been washed away in His blood.
Romans 8 says that the regenerated spirit is life BECAUSE of righteousness.
"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the [human] spirit is [divine] life because of righteousness." (Rom 8:10)
With no redemption there is no justification. With no justification there is no righteousness before God. With no righteousness before God you are still
"estranged from the life of God" regardless of how much you know about Bible verses.
The human spirit is regenerated to receive the ZOE life of God because of imparted
"righteousness". If you do not receive Him you will die in your sins.
So what Jesus means in Matthew 26:28 is "for [these are My words] of the covenant, which is poured out for many for [freedom from] sins" which parallels what He said in John 8 about those who abide in His word being freed from committing sin.
If He did not feel His blood was necessary to be poured out He certainly would not have taken the cup of the Father's will to die. If His blood was all allegorical to the extent that you argue then being a man of typical human attributes He would have AVOIDED the death of the cross.
The temptation of the garden of Gethsemane proves that He laid down His will to the uttermost to do the will of His Father to shed His blood for us.
Your tampering with the truth will cause greater blindness in your heart. This is dangerous. And it could be addicting too.
This makes so much more sense than Him making some really awkward reference to His future death.
From the very early part of His ministry He spoke of His death. He spoke of it as His hour. And He said that for this He came into the world. He was the only man who ever came in to the world to die.
You are doing all this to establish your own righteousness before God ?
There is only ONE with whom God is satisfied, His Son.
Especially in light of Luke 22:19 where He says "do this in remembrance of Me." He's asking them to do it in remembrance of His words - NOT in "remembrance" of His death which hasn't happened yet.
Actually it says for the disciples to do this in remembrance of Him - period. I think He meant of all that He was and all that He did.
You seem not to be interested in the remembrance of Him but in the FORGETTING of Him.