New American Standard Bible
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
I was wondering from a Christian perspective if this includes people killed in war? One can attempt to argue that those people were self sacrificing, but it does not negate the fact that they may very well have been attempting to kill other people at the time and it was only the cruel hand of fortune which rendered them dead rather than their adversary.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie New American Standard Bible
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
I was wondering from a Christian perspective if this includes people killed in war? One can attempt to argue that those people were self sacrificing, but it does not negate the fact that they may very well have been attempting to kill othe ...[text shortened]... and it was only the cruel hand of fortune which rendered them dead rather than their adversary.
We can not judge without knowing the motive of the person. That is why we must leave the judging to the One that does know.
Originally posted by RJHinds We can not judge without knowing the motive of the person. That is why we must leave the judging to the One that does know.
HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
But I am not judging them, if anyone here knows me they know I have a strong aversion to judging and moralising over other people. I just want to try to understand whether or not those who died in war had greater love because of their self sacrifice. It is thought that they made a sacrifice right? Thats why we have remembrance day in the UK and probably something similar in the USA.
this is important because people have argued that if they did not make a sacrifice in say the second world war the Nazis might have taken over Europe. It was their sacrifice that prevented it. The problem I am having is that it seems to me that its incongruous to juxtapose an act of love with an act of war.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie But I am not judging them, if anyone here knows me they know I have a strong aversion to judging and moralising over other people.
I'm not going to hijack your thread, but seriously!
Originally posted by robbie carrobie But I am not judging them, if anyone here knows me they know I have a strong aversion to judging and moralising over other people. I just want to try to understand whether or not those who died in war had greater love because of their self sacrifice. It is thought that they made a sacrifice right? Thats why we have remembrance day in the UK and pro ...[text shortened]... ving is that it seems to me that its incongruous to juxtapose an act of love with an act of war.
You have picked an interesting date to start a thread of this nature. You live in the freedom provided you by millions of people who lost their lives securing it. I really hope you are not going to be disrespecting them and the others since who have lost their lives in military conflict.
Originally posted by divegeester You have picked an interesting date to start a thread of this nature. You live in the freedom provided you by millions of people who lost their lives securing it. I really hope you are not going to be disrespecting them and the others since who have lost their lives in military conflict.
Will you try to refrain from making this thread personal and try to think about the matter objectively. I know its difficult for you. Is it to be considered a self sacrificing act of love when those who died in war were engaged in killing or attempting to kill other people.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie New American Standard Bible
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
I was wondering from a Christian perspective if this includes people killed in war? One can attempt to argue that those people were self sacrificing, but it does not negate the fact that they may very well have been attempting to kill othe ...[text shortened]... and it was only the cruel hand of fortune which rendered them dead rather than their adversary.
I'm sure,( being a human being myself), that a few or so lay down their lives to protect their fellow soldiers.
Studies into the way people react when put into life threatening situations reveal some very surprising results about the human character when put under great strain.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie New American Standard Bible
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
I was wondering from a Christian perspective if this includes people killed in war? One can attempt to argue that those people were self sacrificing, but it does not negate the fact that they may very well have been attempting to kill othe ...[text shortened]... and it was only the cruel hand of fortune which rendered them dead rather than their adversary.
There were an awful lot of people who were non-combatants who died during the Second World War. Including people who were attempting to protect Jews hiding from the Nazis. It's a little difficult to make any kind of judgement without knowing the circumstances of each case. Narrowing the focus to combatants, the problem with excessively pacifistic lines is that sometimes violence does solve problems. There's always exceptions, but the vast majority were fighting to protect their countries, they would not have done what they did under peaceful circumstances. They deserve our rememberance.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie New American Standard Bible
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
I was wondering from a Christian perspective if this includes people killed in war? One can attempt to argue that those people were self sacrificing, but it does not negate the fact that they may very well have been attempting to kill othe ...[text shortened]... and it was only the cruel hand of fortune which rendered them dead rather than their adversary.
I have been thinking about this verse as of late, and I think it is kind of a double meaning type of verse.
1st we think of it as is relates to us or others and what that expression of great love would look like. One could say a soldier fighting for his country, one could say donating an organ for a friend or family member. Stepping in front of another to take the hit and saving the life or another are forms of great love.
2nd and I think the main point of the verse vs my 1st point is Jesus speaking of himself. There is no greater love than one who lays down his life for his friends, and that is exactually what he did. No greater love!
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11 Nov '15 03:42
Originally posted by robbie carrobie New American Standard Bible
Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
I was wondering from a Christian perspective if this includes people killed in war? One can attempt to argue that those people were self sacrificing, but it does not negate the fact that they may very well have been attempting to kill othe ...[text shortened]... and it was only the cruel hand of fortune which rendered them dead rather than their adversary.
In war people die. It has nothing to do with that particular verse.
The verse talks of sacrifice for a friend, not an enemy such as in war.
Originally posted by DeepThought There were an awful lot of people who were non-combatants who died during the Second World War. Including people who were attempting to protect Jews hiding from the Nazis. It's a little difficult to make any kind of judgement without knowing the circumstances of each case. Narrowing the focus to combatants, the problem with excessively pacifistic line ...[text shortened]... would not have done what they did under peaceful circumstances. They deserve our rememberance.
Robbie tends to overlook the entire Old Testament in these threads also. How Jehovah commanded the Herbew army into countless wars where there was terrible violence. In fact on at least one occasion Jehovah punished the Hebrews for not taking the land he had given them by sending them into the wilderness.
Originally posted by yoctobyte I have been thinking about this verse as of late, and I think it is kind of a double meaning type of verse.
1st we think of it as is relates to us or others and what that expression of great love would look like. One could say a soldier fighting for his country, one could say donating an organ for a friend or family member. Stepping in front of anothe ...[text shortened]... ne who lays down his life for his friends, and that is exactually what he did. No greater love!
I don't necessarily think Jesus was excluding all other acts of apparent selfless self-sacrifice by any human being, including in war, but I do think he was being pointedly specific about what was going to happen to him and for who's sake it was going to happen.
The piece I find a little interesting is Jesus' use of "friends" rather than "bride". OK I know he was talking a group of men and "friends" makes more sense in that respect, but elsewhere the NT talks about the "friends of the bridegroom" in relation to the symbolic wedding of Christ and his bride.
What I'm getting at is that dying for one's friends could be seen as a greater sacrifice than dying for ones bride, and indeed Jesus uses those terms "no greater love has anyone who lays down their life for their friends".
Originally posted by karoly aczel I'm sure,( being a human being myself), that a few or so lay down their lives to protect their fellow soldiers.
Studies into the way people react when put into life threatening situations reveal some very surprising results about the human character when put under great strain.
yes no one is denying that the theater of war is stressful or that some may have died to protect others military combatants but they were also engaged in the act of killing or attempting to kill other people and this presents to me a dilemma.
Originally posted by DeepThought There were an awful lot of people who were non-combatants who died during the Second World War. Including people who were attempting to protect Jews hiding from the Nazis. It's a little difficult to make any kind of judgement without knowing the circumstances of each case. Narrowing the focus to combatants, the problem with excessively pacifistic line ...[text shortened]... would not have done what they did under peaceful circumstances. They deserve our rememberance.
No one has stated that they do not deserve to be remembered I simply find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a loving self sacrifice while being engaged in the act of killing other people. Sure you can make the case for people risking their lives for non combatants which is a fine and admirable thing, but the fact is the majority of persons who are alleged to have died in a self sacrificing manner died while trying to kill other people. I find this extremely difficult to reconcile with the idea that they were behaving in a loving manner.
John 15:13
10 Nov '15 18:311 edit
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