Lake of fire

Originally posted by KellyJay

Your inability to answer, whether you like it or not, is part of the discourse.

Originally posted by KellyJay

Haha, you did it again. You're such a man of courage and integrity.

Originally posted by JS357
Insanity — a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
- R.D. Laing, as quoted in Wisdom for the Soul.

I am suggesting that eternal existence in a merciless "lake of fire" would be an insane world, and anyone who does not get that, isn't comprehending it fully. However, anyone who does comprehend it fully and believes it happens to people and could ...[text shortened]... dea doesn't drive you nuts, you either don't comprehend it fully or you don't really believe it.

I am suggesting that eternal existence in a merciless "lake of fire" would be an insane world, and anyone who does not get that, isn't comprehending it fully.

You have a point.

But let me ask you just for argument's sake;

Do you think that not getting that it was God ... God ... in a man suffering the torture, torment of crucifixion FOR YOU, could be similarly insane ?

Seriously. Have you given similar depth of attention to the prospect that Perfection bore the curse of crucifixion and judgment, not because He was guilty, but because YOU were guilty ? And because of love for you, He bore is, personally, on your behalf.

Have you spend perhaps equal time to consider that - as much as it is possible for human beings to understand, God did everything He could, short of usurping your will, that you might be saved and have eternal life ?

My question again is simply have you thought about that with similar time and concentration ? That's all.

However, anyone who does comprehend it fully and believes it happens to people and could happen to him or her, is rationally justified to have an insane reaction of some kind; paranoia on a cosmic scale comes to mind. It's a sort of Catch-22: if the idea doesn't drive you nuts, you either don't comprehend it fully or you don't really believe it.

I am going to say you have a point.

Now let me ask you. Do you think that there could be such a thing as a greatest possible offense ? Could there be an offense which could not be exceeded by a worse one ?

If there was possible an offense for which a greater could not be imagined, would you want as a leader such a one who committed it and refused forever repentence ?

Would you trust your future to follow such a one ?

:Originally posted by sonship

I am suggesting that eternal existence in a merciless "lake of fire" would be an insane world, and anyone who does not get that, isn't comprehending it fully.

You have a point.

But let me ask you just for argument's sake;

Do you think that not getting that it was God ... God ... in a man suffering the torture, torment of cruci and refused [b] forever repentence ?

Would you trust your future to follow such a one ?[/b]

Your questions are somewhat baffling.

#1 parses to: "Not getting it...(not getting that it was God etc.) would be insane." Why would not getting it be insane? It could be just ignorance of that supposed fact?

#2 Have I given similar depth of attention to the prospect that... Well, I don't know if my depth of perception has been similar WRT those to things.

#3 I think I have given and will continue to give time, to the matter of reconciling God's omnipotence with our free will. Equal time? I don't know.

#4 and 5 I haven't given much thought to whether there is a greatest possible offense that could not be exceeded. Are you referring to rejection of God being the greatest possible offense which would justify the eternal merciless lake of fire?

#6 Would I want a leader, period? What would I do with a "leader" in this regard? I am ultimately responsible for my actions whether I decide them myself or choose a leader who decides them.

I'm a bit uncertain of what you are intending to get across to me.

Originally posted by JS357
Your questions are somewhat baffling.

#1 parses to: "Not getting it...(not getting that it was God etc.) would be insane." Why would not getting it be insane? It could be just ignorance of that supposed fact?

#2 Have I given similar depth of attention to the prospect that... Well, I don't know if my depth of perception has been similar WRT those to thing ...[text shortened]... a leader who decides them.

I'm a bit uncertain of what you are intending to get across to me.

Your questions are somewhat baffling.
Your questions are somewhat baffling.

#4 and 5 I haven't given much thought to whether there is a greatest possible offense that could not be exceeded. Are you referring to rejection of God being the greatest possible offense which would justify the eternal merciless lake of fire?

Yes.

I seems to me that that is what the Bible amounts to be saying.

" ... that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

#6 Would I want a leader, period?

Well JS357, what I see in the Bible is that we will be dependent upon one leader or another.

The situation of Adam was a neutral man between and authority and a liar slandering that authority.

I see a triangle situation. God on on point on triangle. Satan is on the opposite point on the triangle. And man is in the middle between these two points with a deciding will to choose one or the other to follow.

I think this reveals the situation of all of us.

What would I do with a "leader" in this regard? I am ultimately responsible for my actions whether I decide them myself or choose a leader who decides them.

I think of the human situation as having the freedom to choose but yet setting in motions certain effects. Those effects man does not have the freedom to arrest.

IE. I can choose to or not to jump out of a window of a ten story building. Once I make that free choice I am no longer free to decide to stop falling, if it be that I decided freely to jump.

What I see in the Bible is God saying that man is free to take the relationship with God or reject the relationship with God.

That is not the whole story. If man uses his freedom of choice and rejects God he messes a lot of things up completely. He is not free then to un-mess up those things. God has to come in to fix it.

"You have the freedom to mess up the relationship. But if you do you cannot fix it. I [God] have to come in and fix it." [paraphrase]

Man, thinks that if he messes up the relationship with God .. HE, MAN can fix it.
God says -

"No, I know and knew that you cannot fix what you just destroyed. I have to take some time now and demonstrate to you that you cannot fix it. After a period of time when I demonstrate that you cannot fix what you have messed up, I will demonstrate that I, God, have to come in and reconcile you again to Myself. I have to fix the problem."

Let me go on to submit that every single religion ever invented by human beings is a variation on the human concept that man can repair the damage that has occurred because of his alienation from ultimate truth, from God.

The Christian Gospel alone reveals that we cannot fix it. God has to come in and fix it. We have to receive the remedy.
Actually, before that we usually have to admit that we are messed up.

I'm a bit uncertain of what you are intending to get across to me.

What I have just explained is seen in the first follower of Satan. Well, actually, the SECOND follower of Satan, Cain.

Adam followed the liar that slandered God to man. Adam followed the liar that caused man to doubt God's word and to doubt God's heart toward man.

Can as the second follower of Satan refused to step out of the following of Satan to take God's way of reconciliation. He invented his own way. And when it was rejected by God, in a fit of resentment and jealousy he murdered him whom God had accepted.

Both men had leaders.
Cain was not totally independent. He was "of the evil one" (1 John 3:12)

He invented the first religion.
He went out then from the presence of God after slaying his brother and formed the basis of the godless world system.

Cain had a leader. And we all come into this world following a leader.
We cannot be neutral.
Here is a point of deciding to transfer from one leader to another:

[/quote] " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes into Him would not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." (John 3:16,17) [/quote]

Those words were spoken by Jesus. And the transfer was spoken about by one of His apostles.

"Giving thanks to the Father, who has ... delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins; ..." (Colossians 1:12a.13,14a)

Satan's kingdom is a kingdom of darkness. You may not think you are following a leader. But that is because he keeps sinners is a darkness. To be under the Satanic authority is to be under the authority of spiritual darkness. And we need a transfer.

That is a transfer out by the power of the Divine Father , out of "the authority of darkness" and into "the kingdom of the Son of His love."

We cannot do the transfer ourselves. We can allow God to transfer us. And He has the power and authority to do so easily. But He needs out permission because He will not usurp our human will.

Originally posted by sonship

Your questions are somewhat baffling.
Your questions are somewhat baffling.

#4 and 5 I haven't given much thought to whether there is a greatest possible offense that could not be exceeded. Are you referring to rejection of God being the greatest possible offense which would justify the eternal merciless lake of fire?

Yes.

I ...[text shortened]... uthority to do so easily. But He needs out permission because He will not usurp our human will.

OK thanks I will mull this over.

Originally posted by JS357
OK thanks I will mull this over.

Fair.

I would have you know that I also mull over your points. And I have contemplated difficult issues with my faith for many years.