Revelation 17,18

Originally posted by Suzianne

A woman is spoken of in Revelation 17:1-3. And a woman is spoken of in Revelation 21:9-10. . The contrast is important. One is called the great harlot, and the other is called the bride. It is perhaps more important to seeing that the two are set opposite of each other.

Revelation 17:1:

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters."

Revelation 21:9

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

See the similarity of the two visions and their contrasts.
What the New Jerusalem is the Mother of Harlots is like her yet falls woefully short in God's eyes.

The Mother of Harlots has to be something of a counterfeit of the culmination of God's purpose through the ages.
Again we should see the reflexive nature of the two visions:

Revelation 17:3

"And he carried me away in spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman."

Revelation 21:10

"And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."

See the similarity and the contrast. A parallel structure is purposely used by the inspiring Holy Spirit in the writing. This parallel structure is pointing to these two women so that we would have a clear impression of comparison.

Both are signs. For this reason I did not take too seriously RJHinds belief that a physical city in a wilderness should be looked for. The mountain upon which John is taken seems more like a symbolic high peak of all revelation than a specific mountain to locate. This is like the mountain view overseeing the entire divine revelation of the Bible unveils the climax of all that God has planned.

Now in Revelation 17:9 when we are explicitly told an interpretation that a city is sitting on seven mountains, that is different. The city of Rome is the best explanation.

I have said some discernment is needed to discriminate at times the Harlot and the Woman. They are closely related as the Roman Catholic Church is related to Rome. But they are not exactly always the same.

Both the entities of Revelation 17 and 18 are described as Babylon. Though I believe 17 stresses more the religious aspect of Babylon and stresses the material aspect.

Some have referred to ecclesiastical Babylon on on hand and material Babylon on the other. I believe 17 is about the oldest form of organized Christianity - the RCC whose deeds are extremely displeasing to God. Yet she does contain things related to God as a gilded on advertizement.

Rome, the physical city is the that which the sign in chapter 18 points. But some overlap between the religious Babylon and the Babylon of the physical city is also seen.

God's people are taken away captive to Babylon in both the Old Testament and New -

"And I heard another voice out of heaven saying, Come out of her, My people ... " (18:4a)

The people of God, the saints - saved, regenerated, justified and belonging to Christ are caught away captive in these two aspects of Babylon. I am not sure to strictly make this to refer to the religious or the material aspect. it seems that there is an overlap.

At any rate, knowing the Old Testament history of Babylon gives us understanding. God's people were meant to be in the Good Land of Canaan. Because of their failure to follow Jehovah they were carried captive into Babylon. We should regard the NT usage to speak something of the same thing.

What does Babylon represent and what is the principle of Babylon? Why is Babylon's nature and conduct so offensive to God? It seems necessary in Revelation that Babylon must be judged and dealt with before the wife of the Lamb appears. The Mother of Harlots must be dealt with BEFORE the Wife of the Lamb is fully manifested.

And we all need God to grant revelation to open the eyes of our hearts so that we could see the nature of both Babylon the Mother of the prostitutes and the Wife and Bride of Christ - New Jerusalem.

Now consider the whole passage about God's people being called to come out of Babylon.

"And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues;

For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses." (Rev. 18:4,5)

The name Babylon originates from "Babel." Recall that in Genesis 11 the tower of Babel proudly reached up to the sky. The principle of the tower of Babel is man's attempt to build up something from earth to reach unto heaven.

When men built this tower of Babel they burned the earth to make bricks. In other words natural stones were not used but bricks. We believe there is a significance in the Bible mentioning the bricks.

What is the difference between brick and stone? Stone is made by God, and bricks are made by man. Bricks are a human invention, a human product. Man burns the earth killing all the life in the earth in order to make bricks. This could be the meaning of Babylon. Man made for the spiritual life from God has all this capacity burned out of him by human efforts to build a proud and Godless tower to reach unto heaven. Babylon represents man's ability rather than the operation of God's grace. Babylon represents a corrupted Christianity which does not allow the Holy Spirit to have authority. The life Divine life impartation of the Holy Spirit is burned out, killing the spiritual sense. This ruins man for the church. This ruins man for the building of God's holy city. This, however, produces a proud structure exemplifying fallen mankind's pride to reach up to heaven.

Religion can be related to God yet kill spiritual life. The pride of the tower of Babel can have a thoroughly "Christian" facade upon it. God's people are carried captive into such a desolation. For this reason in Revelation God calls for those who are really His own to come out of her. They should not be participants in her sins which have reached up to heaven.

In both the OT and the NT the guidance the Holy Spirit is absent from the building of Babylon the Great. Rather, this entity does all things by human effort. Everything consists of men and women whose spiritual life has nearly been baked away by man. The attempt is to turn "living stones" stones into burned "bricks".

The Apostle Peter said the believers are not bricks but living stones to build up God's house:

" You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood ..." ( 1 Peter 2:5a)

Every believer in Jesus is meant to be a priest. Every believer is meant to be a living stone. The Religious Babylon burns the spiritual life out of Christians, and limits their function to rely on a special class of priests in a hierarchy.

The sinful abomination of the matter reaches up to heaven in God's sight.

For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses." (See Rev. 18:4,5)

Everything in the degraded corrupted Christianity depends upon man's action. Those who are according to this principle do not see that they are limited; rather, they attempt to do the Lord's work by their own natural ability. They do not stand in a position where they SInce the church is utterly dependent upon the empowering grace of God, believers should pray like this:

"Lord, if You do not give us grace, we cannot do anything. We fear and reject our own efforts in the flesh. We would be as Paul who said it is no longer he that lived but Christ that lived within him. "

Originally posted by Suzianne
If you're expecting a bunch of Islam bashing, I'd suggest looking elsewhere, or maybe start your own thread for people who want to talk about that.

I believe Mohammad to be the false prophet spoken of in Revelation.

After all, Mo denies that Jesus is the Son of God and he is a world wide prophet that says he speaks for God.

Also note the beheadings in Revelation for those who refuse to submit to their system.

Sound familiar?

Originally posted by whodey

I believe Mohammad to be the false prophet spoken of in Revelation.
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Do you mean Mohammad brought back to life from being long dead ?

After all, Mo denies that Jesus is the Son of God and he is a world wide prophet that says he speaks for God.
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I do not want to pounce on anyone insisting on my understanding being the only possible one. But I would like you to permit me to ask HOW you would deal with certain matters, IF Mohammad is the false prophet.

1.) The false prophet is totally dedicated to the Antichrist. Right ?

The Antichrist exalts himself against every and all things called God or that are worshipped (2 Thess. 2:4).

Why should that NOT also include Allah, taught by Moslems as God in Islam ?

How would you deal with that?

" ... the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship ..." (2 Thess. 2:3b,4)

Why should that not include Allah, along with Buddha, Vishnu, Brahman, as well as Yahweh and Jesus Christ ?

Fanatic Moslems cry out "God is great!" Are they likely to gather around this one who is opposed to all that is called God ?

2.) Also, Revelation 13 says that the Antichrist blasphemes those who are in heaven -

" And he [the beast] opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, which tabernacle in heaven." (Rev. 13:6)

Fanatical Moslems are literally DYING to get to what they think is heaven. Are they likely to rally around one who is uttering blasphemies against heaven ?

I am watching the world situation.
But I would like to know how you would think about these matters.

Originally posted by sonship

Typo.

I meant to write:

Both the entities of Revelation 17 and 18 are described as Babylon. Though I believe 17 stresses more the religious aspect of Babylon and chapter 18 [edited] stresses the material aspect.

The title "Mystery" in verse 5 of chapter 17 as "MYSTERY The Mother of Prostitutes " - also suggest the religious nature more than the material nature

English Standard Version
And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.”

Berean Study Bible
On her forehead a mysterious name was written: Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth.

Berean Literal Bible
And upon her forehead a name was written: a mystery, Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes, and of the abominations of the earth.

The mystery comes out of the utter mixture of pagan and occult things with things of God.

The prostitutes of which she is the mother are the denominations and groups in Christianity that contain evil doctrines, practices, and traditions carried out of the Roman Catholic Church. The daughters are all the different sects and groups of Christianity who to some extent hold on to some teaching, practice, or apostasy of Roman Catholicism.

Christmas. Easter, hierarchical clerical class, Mary worship, with the mass and sacrifices shape shift into similar concepts in many of the groups which have been spawned off from the Roman Catholic Church.

The golden cup in the Prostitutes hand indicates that something of God's nature she does have. The contents of the cup though are abominations and filthiness. Although the cup is golden, what the people drink is an evil mixture. Though deep down in the Prostitute something of the truth of God can often be located. what gets into the people for the most part is an evil mixture.

This mixture should be considered the leaven which the woman hid in three measures of the fine flour until the whole lump was leavened in Matthew 13:33

"Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened."

Leaven in this parable is negative. The woman "hid" leaven in the meal concealed a corrupting element in it in order to cause it to bloat up as leaven does to bread. This makes the bread more palatable.

In order to get more people to accept the gospel the Roman Catholic Church concealed in the teachings of Christ many pagan and superstitious beliefs, evil practices, and hypocrisy in order to attract and hold the masses of people, supposedly making the word of God more edible to the world. The attraction and holding power is so strong that God's people, along with millions of unbelievers too, are carried away as to a New Testament Babylon of spiritual captivity.

The WHOLE lump eventually became bloated up and corrupted. The parable of the hidden leaven reveals much of the same truth as the vision of the Mother of Prostitutes holding a golden cup full of abominations.

The new testament church life must seek to be pure from all corrupting leaven as Paul spoke to the church in Corinth.

"
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Purge out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened; for our Passover Christ has been sacrificed for us." (1 Cor. 5:6,7)

The local church here, "the church which is in Corinth" ( 1:2) is admonished to purge out the corrupting mixture from their Christian lives for the sake of having a church life which is pure Christ dispensed into her constituents.

Originally posted by whodey
I believe Mohammad to be the false prophet spoken of in Revelation.

After all, Mo denies that Jesus is the Son of God and he is a world wide prophet that says he speaks for God.

Also note the beheadings in Revelation for those who refuse to submit to their system.

Sound familiar?

Any similarity IS entirely coincidental.

I'm sure you're familiar with the saying that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Just as the Hebrews and later the Israelites were both exiled for their sins against God.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I believe Mohammad to be the false prophet spoken of in Revelation.
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Do you mean Mohammad brought back to life from being long dead ?

After all, Mo denies that Jesus is the Son of God and he is a world wide prophet that says he speaks for God.
------------ ...[text shortened]... atching the world situation.
But I would like to know how you would think about these matters.[/b]

But Mohammad has been exalted above everything of God. I don't include other gods because none claim to represent the God of the Bible like Mo did. I would even go so far as to say that Mohammad is the Muslim Jesus. I say this knowing that Muslims never claimed Mohammad to be God in the flesh, as Christians believe Jesus to be, but they essentially revere him as much, if not more, than Christians revere Jesus.

Muslims would rather follow the teachings of Mohammad than they would that of Jesus laid out in the Bible. For them, every word Mohammad spoke is exalted above all others. This is especially problematic when Mohammad rewrote the narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus. They have very strange teachings, such as God replacing Jesus with another poor soul on the cross.

And why does he do this? It is because Mohammad could not wrap his mind around the fact that God would let a prophet die like that. In the mind of Mohammad, God wishes his prophets to rule and reign supreme with the sword like he did. The trouble is, Jesus was not the only one to die like he did. Jesus once said that the blood of the prophets are on the hands of the Jewish people who slayed them.

Mohammad does not fit mold of a Biblical prophet in any way, except being a false prophet.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Any similarity IS entirely coincidental.

I'm sure you're familiar with the saying that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Just as the Hebrews and later the Israelites were both exiled for their sins against God.

Who in the modern era beheads people Suzie?

Originally posted by whodey
Who in the modern era beheads people Suzie?

Your biggest customers, the Saudis.

Originally posted by whodey

But Mohammad has been exalted above everything of God.
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The false prophet does not exalt himself. He is totally dedicated to the exaltation of his superior, Antichrist. His dedication is to Antichrist.

"And he [the second beast, the false prophet] exercises all the authority of the first beast in his sight, and he causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose death stroke was healed." (Rev. 13:11)

Keep in mind that the false prophet is entirely the subservient assistant to the Antichrist who is the one exalting himself above all that is called God. The second beast, the false prophet, shows total dedication not to himself but to another - the Antichrist who exalts himself.


I don't include other gods because none claim to represent the God of the Bible like Mo did. I would even go so far as to say that Mohammad is the Muslim Jesus.
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That may be true. But I think he is more like an Arabian Moses - a law giver. But the false prophet in Revelation is the total "flunky" of the one he is dedicated to serve. That is not himself. Nor is it an idoless monotheistic god. Rather he serves a man who exalts himself above all objects of worship.

As bad as Mohammad was, and as false, I don't think the false prophet is Mohammad come back to life.

The first beast is said to come up out of the sea. (Rev. 13:1).
The second beast in contrast is said to come up out of the earth. (Rev. 13:11).

Concerning Antichrist:

"And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, ..." (Rev. 13:1)

Concerning the False Prophet:

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, ..." (13:11)

Originally posted by whodey
Who in the modern era beheads people Suzie?

You're so quick to claim that the entire story has been told.

We're not yet even into the Tribulation yet, the AntiChrist has yet to take power. Once he does, the guillotines will indeed claim their bloody prize. We're still in the introduction to this story. No one really knows the details, but we do know how it ends.

"You ain't seen nothin' yet."

Originally posted by sonship
[b] But Mohammad has been exalted above everything of God.
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The false prophet does not exalt himself. He is totally dedicated to the exaltation of his superior, Antichrist. His dedication is to Antichrist.

[quote] "And he [the second beast, the ...[text shortened]... e will be out of the nation of the Jews signified as coming up out of the earth.

Cont. below[/b]

dude no one reads these long texts.