Originally posted by Eladar
You believe the church on earth is made up of perfect people who will be immune to all of the world's ills? Otherwise Jesus will not return?
If I believed that the church universal was made up of people who are perfect, then I would not believe it necessary for the Lord Jesus to petition His Father that they may be
"perfected" in any regard.
I would never dare say I as a Christian am perfected.
Even the Apostle Paul said in [bPhilippians[/b] -
" Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, ..." (Phil. 3:12)
He goes on to say he forgets the things which are behind and presses on to
"gain Christ."
Until we either die or see the Lord Jesus we should have this attitude, that we press on to gain more and more of Jesus Christ wrought into our personality, into our soul.
" ... I have suffered the loss of all things and count them refuse [in comparison] that I may gain Christ" (v.8)
And Paul says as many as are mature should have this same attitude, of always stretching forth to gain more and more of Christ. And he says we should imitate his way and the way of those who have likewise seen this way.
"Let us therefore, as many as are fullgrown, have this mind; ...' (v.15a)
"Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern." (v.17)
So we should always be humble to recognize we still need to press on to allow God to work Christ deeper and more into our beings.
This was in the middle of his ministry. Towards the end of his ministry shortly before he was to be martyred his conscience was strong that he had kept the faith. He expected to receive from the Lord a reward as a crown of righteousness.
" I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day, and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing." ( 2 Tim. 4:8)
I believe that through church history, here and there, now and then individual Christians have had the confidence at the end of their race, that they had run well, kept the faith, and had consciences bold before Christ.
Now at the end of this age before Jesus comes back, He must obtain not some individual spiritual giants, but some critical mass of overcoming believers. In city by city in many localities on all the continents, Christ will get a critical mass of those who corporately are perfected to this level of readiness.
No, Eladar, I am not preaching a doctrine of "sinless perfection".
But the Apostle does say that all the Christians, including Himself, will arrive at the measure of the stature of a full grown man. Now He does not insist that all will arrive at one time or at the same time. He just says
"until we all arrive".
" Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness ... etc. etc. etc. ...
But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ ..." (See Eph. 4:13-15)
Jesus has to have
something of a remnant at least, of matured believers who are
"inheriting the promises". They are no longer children divided by racism and other divisive things which have warred against the oneness of the Christians.
Like Paul, only on a collective and corporate level, we become ready to meet the Lord Jesus as a wife who has prepared herself.
In this sense, the coming of Jesus Christ is like a coming from TWO directions. He is coming again from above, from heaven. Yet He is also coming again out from within those Christians overcoming the degradation of Christianity and are
"inheriting the promises".
The writer of
Hebrews knew that some saints in those days were
"inheriting the promises" and that the Christians should seek to emulate them.
" That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises." (Hebrews 6:12)
Very odd belief that I have never seen before. Especially from a person who does not believe we need to follow Jesus commands.
You cannot quote any post of mine recommending that we do not need to follow the commands of Jesus. Would you produce the quotation written by me which proposes such a teaching ? If not you should retract the false accusation. One or the other you should do.
At least you should point out, from this moment of time until you notice it, my recommending that Christians do not need to follow the commands of Christ.
Very odd indeed. I suppose not for a humanist.
If you think that
"Until we all arrive" can only take place after the Lord's coming and perhaps in Heaven, then I am afraid that you are mistaken.
To grow up into Him
"in all things" God expects to accomplish in the church age, with at least a remnant who overcome the surrounding degradation. It is the very ONENESS that empowers and is the catalyst to energize the growth of divine life in people.
This is why the Apostle said that the normal church life was a farm for growing Christ in people. And I believe that we have living and functioning local churches on the earth today as farms for growing Christ in believers.
" For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm] God's building." ( 1 Cor. 3:9)