Originally posted by scacchipazzo Benvenuto Cellini was a serial killer, rapist, womanizer. His art is sublime, can never be overlooked and is still prized/valued at enormous $ relative to its intrinsic value. I doubt any of us would not want to own a Cellini. Cellini raped women, young boys, indiscriminately and in many countries. At least four murders are ascribed to Cellini. He kille ing as violently as he lived.
http://blog.europeana.eu/2012/09/caravaggio-a-murderous-artist/
I really like Caravaggio, he brings his subjects to life like no other and perhaps a wreckless corrupt life helped him do so.
Its more people like wagner i question - not evil artists (i still think many are just crazy eg francis bacon) but artists who used there art for evil - there's a distinction and the art sort of becomes a historical turd to be crude.
I looked up the goldsmith you posted and his work looks tacky so his bad behaviour didn't help i guess. Klee is one of my favourites and you can see by the pictures he must of been an interesting thoughtful person.
NO one questions Caravaggio's enormous talent. It is entirely possible he derived a lot of his imagery from his semi-putrid mind. None of us would shun his art based on his behavior alone, but he was definitely a man of questionable morals. Yet you find greater reason to shun Wagner? Why? Wagner never murdered anyone. Obnoxious? Yes. Womanizer? Sure. Anti-Semite? No worse than any other 19th century German, French, Austrian and other Europeans. Wagner is an enigma even in his anti-Semitism. He chose Hermann Levi, a Jew, to premiere Parsifal, likely his greatest work.
Originally posted by e4chris It's more people like wagner i question - not evil artists (i still think many are just crazy eg francis bacon) but artists who used there art for evil - there's a distinction and the art sort of becomes a historical turd to be crude.
Did Wagner use his art for evil? We know that he expressed anti-semitism in real life. But is that anti-semitism actually expressed in his operas? I'm don't think it is. Some commentators find Beckmesser in Meistersinger to contain elements of a Jewish stereotype, but there no actual explicit evidence that we're supposed to read Beckmesser as Jewish.
My late grandfather, who was Jewish, saw no contradiction between his ethnic identity and his status as a passionate Wagnerian!
Mime, from Der Ring das Nibelungen and Klingsor from Parsifal are the other allegedly Jewish Wagner characters although noe are identified as such in the libretti. Wagner represented Eduard Hanslick in Die Meistersinger portraying him as Sixtus Beckmesser, yet Hanslick was not a practicing Jew although he wrote about Jewishness in music. It is more likely Wagner hated him for being an ardent critic than for being Jewish.
Originally posted by Teinosuke Did Wagner use his art for evil? We know that he expressed anti-semitism in real life. But is that anti-semitism actually expressed in his operas? I'm don't think it is. Some commentators find Beckmesser in Meistersinger to contain elements of a Jewish stereotype, but there no actual explicit evidence that we're supposed to read Beckmesser as Jewish.
My ...[text shortened]... h, saw no contradiction between his ethnic identity and his status as a passionate Wagnerian!
Wagner set a sound track for evil, also ride of the valcheries is just rubbish, it sounds like a heavy metal riff only metal is better... Mendelssohn is magnificent compared to wagner and beethoven. I think beethoven is over rated too, don't you think he sounds a bit turgid? even at his very best its repetative whilst Mendelssohn is moving.
I do censor wagner a bit, if a pop star had the same associations i would mock them no matter how good, even if they were good I would not want them in my head.
I don't have a problem with 'immoral' art or artists, can be interesting sometimes. But wagners like another level of evil I'm not keen on.
Originally posted by e4chris Wagner set a sound track for evil, also ride of the valcheries is just rubbish, it sounds like a heavy metal riff only metal is better... Mendelssohn is magnificent compared to wagner and beethoven. I think beethoven is over rated too, don't you think he sounds a bit turgid? even at his very best its repetative whilst Mendelssohn is moving.
I do censor wa ists, can be interesting sometimes. But wagners like another level of evil I'm not keen on.
Judging The Ride of the Valkyries in isolation is silly - it's part of a massive, epic work, and it should be judged in that context, as part of the musical, thematic and narrative structure of The Ring.
I find it fortunate that we don't have to choose between Mendelssohn, Beethoven and Wagner. These were all great composers. Mendelssohn was delicate, playful, graceful; Wagner was grand, intense, passionate. Each did something that the other could not have done. Could Mendelssohn have created as convincing a musical metaphor for sexual passion as Act 2 of Tristan?
Saying that Wagner created "a soundtrack for evil" is holding Wagner responsible for Hitler's misuse of his work. Wagner's operas do not inherently endorse fascist politics.
Originally posted by e4chris Wagner set a sound track for evil, also ride of the valcheries is just rubbish, it sounds like a heavy metal riff only metal is better... Mendelssohn is magnificent compared to wagner and beethoven. I think beethoven is over rated too, don't you think he sounds a bit turgid? even at his very best its repetative whilst Mendelssohn is moving.
I do censor wa ...[text shortened]... ists, can be interesting sometimes. But wagners like another level of evil I'm not keen on.
An interesting comment by George Steiner on this subject - in his (quasi-) autobiography, Errata. Incidentally, by "Adorno's jotting", he's referring to a brief note made by Adorno which read: "Hitler and the 9th Symphony: Seid umschlungen, Millionen".
Beyond true and false, beyond good and evil. The two dichotomies are closely, though complexly, intermeshed. Music can be abused when it is composed and executed in glorification of political tyranny, of commercial kitsch. It can be, indeed it has been, played loud enough to cover the cries of the tortured. Such abuse, of which exploitations of Wagner's music, but even of Beethoven's Ninth (we recall Adorno's jotting) are emblematic, is wholly contingent. It does not arise from, it does not negate the ontological and formal extraterritoriality of music to good and evil. In fear of Wagner, Lukacs asked whether even a single bar of Mozart can be politically abused, can be made expressive of inherent evil. To which, when I reported the challenge, Roger Sesssions, that most thoughtful of composers, replied by sitting down at his piano and playing the menace-aria of the Queen of the Night in The Magic Flute. Adding at once, however, 'No, Lukacs is right.'
Calling an artist evil because you dislike him is outright silly and goofy. Nothing wrong with Mendelssohn, but liking him and knocking Beethoven is also silly. Beethoven changed music forever and influenced Mendelssohn and many others. Fortunately there's room to like or dislike anyone one wants. That said, however, Wagner no more wrote evil music than Mendelssohn wrote virtuous music. Ride of the Valkyries is but a passage in a 16 hour plus work full of incredible creativity, sublime moments and brlliancies unlike anything heard before or since. I love Mendelssohn, but I'll never stop loving Beethoven and Wagner and so many, many others. Nothing turgid about Beethoven and he repeated only when necessary to move the musical idea forward. If repetitiveness repels you then try Beethoven's opus 131 string quartet, full of non repetitiveness, incredible because by then Beethoven was completely stone deaf and also because it is free form music abandoning the molds of the past and leaping forward in one huge bound towards greater expressiveness. I doubt anyone would agree with you Beethoven is overrated.
Originally posted by scacchipazzo Calling an artist evil because you dislike him is outright silly and goofy. Nothing wrong with Mendelssohn, but liking him and knocking Beethoven is also silly. Beethoven changed music forever and influenced Mendelssohn and many others. Fortunately there's room to like or dislike anyone one wants. That said, however, Wagner no more wrote evil music than ...[text shortened]... d towards greater expressiveness. I doubt anyone would agree with you Beethoven is overrated.
To be honest I disagree, I think there are very cultured people who listen to and appreciate Beethoven but are still bored by it - oh that melody again... and again! I used to go to outdoor classical concerts and they always save Mendelssohn for last to go with the fireworks - He is better! no matter how good beethoven is technicaly .
Wagner is bad - pick a rubbish heavy metal band (Iron Maiden) and thats about his level to me.
I daresay I have never ever heard anyone say that about Beethoven, nor anyone outside of Eduard Hanslick consider Wagner rubbish. Mendelssohn for fireworks? What piece, pray tell me? Again no knock on Mendelssohn by any stretch, a genius in his own right, but fireworks? Handel, Tchaikovsky, John Phillip Sousa perhaps, but not sweet Mendelssohn. BTW, I consider Schubert far superior to Mendelssohn, but quite happy to enjoy both and explore their many great works. Have you ever heard Mendelssohn's Elijah oratorio? A masterwork of the very first order.
Originally posted by e4chris To be honest I disagree, I think there are very cultured people who listen to and appreciate Beethoven but are still bored by it - oh that melody again... and again! I used to go to outdoor classical concerts and they always save Mendelssohn for last to go with the fireworks - He is better! no matter how good beethoven is technicaly .
Wagner is bad - pick a rubbish heavy metal band (Iron Maiden) and thats about his level to me.
The sophistication of your music criticism is noted. Could you provide some justification as to what, in your opinion, makes Wagner's music bad?
Originally posted by scacchipazzo I daresay I have never ever heard anyone say that about Beethoven, nor anyone outside of Eduard Hanslick consider Wagner rubbish. Mendelssohn for fireworks? What piece, pray tell me? Again no knock on Mendelssohn by any stretch, a genius in his own right, but fireworks? Handel, Tchaikovsky, John Phillip Sousa perhaps, but not sweet Mendelssohn. BTW, I c ...[text shortened]... works. Have you ever heard Mendelssohn's Elijah oratorio? A masterwork of the very first order.
I can't remember the name but Mendelssohn wrote a piece that should of been the theme tune to star wars - it sounds a lot like the star wars theme - its the greatest piece of classical music ever to my mind - its good from end to end and builds and builds.
It makes Beethoven sound a bit repetative, I like him best on the piano. With wagner, its the fact he was happy to right a sound track to the nazis - you can get very ugly heavy metal, but at least it does what it says on the tin - wagner was much more ugly but dressed up as culture, guess i have no interest as a result, am i missing out? Mendelsson I would buy a hi fi for he's that good.
Originally posted by e4chris With wagner, its the fact he was happy to write a sound track to the nazis - you can get very ugly heavy metal, but at least it does what it says on the tin - wagner was much more ugly but dressed up as culture, guess i have no interest as a result, am i missing out?
But this is false. Wagner was not "happy to write a sound track to the Nazis". Wagner died fifty years before the Nazis came to power. His music was appropriated by the Nazis. But there's nothing inherently fascist about it. Listen to it on its merits, and its greatness may become clear to you.
Agreed. Wagner's music was usurped by the Nazis for there was no Nazi party in Wagner day, nor did Wagner ever advocate for the extermination of the Jews. In fact, as I stated before, Parsifal was conducted by Hermann Levi, an Orthodox Jew at it's premiere. I seriously doubt that Goebbels, Hitler, Himmler or such would have allowed a Jew to touch the score, let alone conduct Parsifal. Wagner was never even a proto-Nazi as he is accused of and Houston Stuart Chamberlain, an Englishman and Johan Gottliebb Fitch, father of German nationalism are the true philosophical founders of Nazism.
If one liked nothing else but a small sample of Wagner one would have to start with the prelude to Das Rheingold. Ernest Newman, Wagner impresario and biographer writes the following: " The Prelude to Das Rheingold is of an originality that must have staggered people who heard it for the first time in 1869. It consists of nothing else but a persistenet sounding, 136 bars, of the tonality of E flat. It is meant to suggest the Rhine; and the idea is first of all a sort of groundswell, then of heavy waves, then of lighter and still lighter waves. First the double basses give out a deep and long held E flat which, later, the bassoons impose a B flat. The sense of irresistible motion goes on increasing as the theme of the movement of the water seems to become gradually more rapid, then further altered rhythmically and taken into the higher and higher register of orchestras. At about the 130th bar the curtain rises showing us the bottom of the Rhine."
Originally posted by scacchipazzo I daresay I have never ever heard anyone say that about Beethoven, nor anyone outside of Eduard Hanslick consider Wagner rubbish. Mendelssohn for fireworks? What piece, pray tell me? Again no knock on Mendelssohn by any stretch, a genius in his own right, but fireworks? Handel, Tchaikovsky, John Phillip Sousa perhaps, but not sweet Mendelssohn. BTW, I c ...[text shortened]... works. Have you ever heard Mendelssohn's Elijah oratorio? A masterwork of the very first order.
im no classical music expert so forgive me if i sound a bit ignorant. but when i hear beethovan i always get the feeling that it's like classical 'pop' music, aimed at the masses, with catchy hooks repeated....and while im here, what's up with everybody loving einaudi, that guy makes me want to take an axe to all piano's and set fire to them.
Does an artist's personal morality matter?
26 May '13 01:073 edits
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