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  1. Subscriberkmax87
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    20 Jul '18 15:02
    Is it because the US found it good business to shut up about the abuses going on in China, for 30 years, that Trump's stated agenda, which is to embrace Russia in all of its backwardness actualky makes sense?

    His comments about the moral equivalence between Russia and the US during the primaries, seemed fundamentally unpatriotic but no-one took much more notice of it past that particular newscycle.

    Isn't it in America's long term interests to hold Russia very close???.....
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    20 Jul '18 15:071 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Is it because the US found it good business to shut up about the abuses going on in China, for 30 years, that Trump's stated agenda, which is to embrace Russia in all of its backwardness actualky makes sense?

    His comments about the moral equivalence between Russia and the US during the primaries, seemed fundamentally unpatriotic but no-one took much more ...[text shortened]... icular newscycle.

    Isn't it in America's long term interests to hold Russia very close???.....
    h Clinton wanted Russia/us relationship to be stronger...Obama wanted the election over so he would have more flexibility...why the outrage now?
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    20 Jul '18 15:131 edit
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    h Clinton wanted Russia/us relationship to be stronger...Obama wanted the election over so he would have more flexibility...why the outrage now?
    Well Barry told the Russians, when he thought his microphone was off, that he could work a deal with them after the elections.

    Then you had Hillary want to give them all the US uranium.

    And lastly, Obama knew full well that Russia was interfering in the US elections, but did nothing other than saying privately, "Don't do that".

    Apparently Russia is only a problem with Trump in the White House.
  4. Subscriberkmax87
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    20 Jul '18 16:23
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Well Barry told the Russians, when he thought his microphone was off, that he could work a deal with them after the elections.

    Then you had Hillary want to give them all the US uranium.

    And lastly, Obama knew full well that Russia was interfering in the US elections, but did nothing other than saying privately, "Don't do that".

    Apparently Russia is only a problem with Trump in the White House.
    Are you saying the only difference between Trump and (Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush....) is that Trump has yet to learn the art of subtlety??
  5. Zugzwang
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    20 Jul '18 18:522 edits
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Is it because the US found it good business to shut up about the abuses going on in China, for 30 years, that Trump's stated agenda, which is to embrace Russia in all of its backwardness actualky makes sense?

    His comments about the moral equivalence between Russia and the US during the primaries, seemed fundamentally unpatriotic but no-one took much more ...[text shortened]... icular newscycle.

    Isn't it in America's long term interests to hold Russia very close???.....
    During the past 30 years, the US State Department has routinely issued reports criticizing
    human rights violations in China rather than stay 'silent', as Kmax87 absurdly claims.

    Kmax87's raging racist Sinophobia (known from other posts) induces him to keep lying about China.
    When based upon such false premises, Kmax87's comments or questions may be dismissed.

    "...embrace Russia in all of its backwardness actualky [sic] makes sense?"
    --Kmax87

    The arrogant Westerner Kmax87 acts as though Russia were the technological equivalent of Somalia.
  6. Subscriberkmax87
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    21 Jul '18 17:29
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    During the past 30 years, the US State Department has routinely issued reports criticizing
    human rights violations in China rather than stay 'silent', as Kmax87 absurdly claims...
    Routinely issuing critical reports all the while expanding business engagement over the past 30 years exposes the US State Departments effectiveness, don't you think? A strongly worded censure missive. That will show them!
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    21 Jul '18 17:33
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Routinely issuing critical reports all the while expanding business engagement over the past 30 years exposes the US State Departments effectiveness, don't you think? A strongly worded censure missive. That will show them!
    Doing anything but chat about the human rights abuses of any country but one's we were about to invade fell out of favor in the neoliberal era. Business is business.
  8. Subscriberkmax87
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    21 Jul '18 18:37
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    ....Kmax87's raging racist Sinophobia (known from other posts) induces him to keep lying about China......
    And before you get carried away with your own agitprop, on page 4 of the Thread called TheTrump Doctrine, you attempted to school me on the West's racist apprehension of China, replete with a Wikipedia link to an article on the Yellow Peril.......
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by @duchess64 05 Jul '18 15:47 / 3 edits
    Kmax87's proposed grand alliance of 'white' Great Powers against China is far from new.
    "Is this the "Brannon-Breitbart doctrine"?"
    --Kmax87
    It has been called 'fighting the Yellow Peril'.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Four posts later I replied
    --- oOo ----
    Originally posted by @kmax87 13 Jul '18 10:27 / 1 edit
    If you follow a path down the rabbit hole that is the phenomenon of "Yellow Peril" xenophobia, .....
    ---oOo---
    Using the phenomenon that you linked a Wikipedia article to, I followed up and expanded on the animus between the West and China, only for you to reply two posts later:-
    --- oOo ---

    Originally posted by @duchess64 13 Jul '18 14:06
    Kmax87's rhetoric shows a very Sinophobic misinterpretation of history.
    (The 'Yellow Peril' was invoked to justify the racist White Australia immigration policy.)
    ---oOo-----

    I apologize for insisting, but it was your post that:-
    a) introduced the Yellow Peril epithet into the debate.
    and your subsequent post that:-
    b) launched into an ad-hominem which you had laid the groundwork for in your previous post.

    That your establishing of 'facts' has no merit at all, but rather delineates a certain extreme level of pathological dishonesty, in terms of the lengths you will go to painstakingly build up a narrative to support your view that you can summon in order to discredit the views of others, demonstrates a level of dedication few posses.

    All your posts really demonstrate however, is that you are an unreliable witness to the facts, and that you would deliberately misconstrue the words of others in order to discredit the views you are unable to gainsay, which suggests nothing more than a poverty of intellect and paucity of integrity and human spirit.
  9. Zugzwang
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    21 Jul '18 20:021 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Routinely issuing critical reports all the while expanding business engagement over the past 30 years exposes the US State Departments effectiveness, don't you think? A strongly worded censure missive. That will show them!
    "30 years being silent on China."
    --Kmax87

    Kmax87's claim about the US government is obviously FALSE.

    "...all the while expanding business engagement."
    --Kmax87

    It's FALSE that the USA has 'ALL THE WHILE' expanded business engagement in China in the past 30 years (since 1988)
    After China's 1989 crackdown on dissidents, the US government stopped some ongoing
    or pending transactions with China, particularly involving the sale of advanced technology.
    Ever since 1949, the USA has had an embargo (extremely restrictive for several decades,
    less so later) against exporting advanced technology to China. It's FALSE to claim that
    US business engagement in China can be graphed as always a smooth line going upward.

    When the US government has allowed American corporations to do business in China,
    it does so because it regards it as being in the national interest of the USA and its economy.
  10. Zugzwang
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    21 Jul '18 20:10
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    And before you get carried away with your own agitprop, on page 4 of the Thread called TheTrump Doctrine, you attempted to school me on the West's racist apprehension of China, replete with a Wikipedia link to an article on the Yellow Peril.......
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [i]Originally posted by @duchess64[/i ...[text shortened]... ich suggests nothing more than a poverty of intellect and paucity of integrity and human spirit.
    I lack the time now to refute Kmax87's usual nonsense.

    "...you [Duchess64] are an unreliable witness to the facts,"
    --Kmax87

    "30 years [of the US government] being silent on China"
    --Kmax87

    OBVIOUSLY FALSE. But the Sinophobic troll Kmax87 has refused to concede it and
    spewed more nonsense in apparently attempting to rationalize or justify his falsehood.

    It's clear enough that Kmax87's obsessive animus toward China, in addition to his ignorance
    of China and its history, outweighs any concern that he pretends to have about the facts.
  11. Zugzwang
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    21 Jul '18 20:12
    Originally posted by @no1marauder to Kmax87
    Doing anything but chat about the human rights abuses of any country but one's we
    were about to invade fell out of favor in the neoliberal era. Business is business.
    It could be an improvement IF the USA criticized Israel's human rights abuses of the Palestinians
    even though the USA would refuse to reduce its lavish economic and military aid to Israel.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    21 Jul '18 20:151 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    It could be an improvement IF the USA criticized Israel's human rights abuses of the Palestinians
    even though the USA would refuse to reduce its lavish economic and military aid to Israel.
    In what sense? The US used to routinely support (or at least not veto) UN Security Council resolutions condemning Israel's settlement policy on the West Bank but the money to militarily enforce those policies always kept flowing.

    EDIT: Not only has the United States traditionally viewed Israeli settlements as a barrier to peace; it has also deemed them to be illegal, a position most succinctly encapsulated by the State Department’s legal adviser, who concluded in a 1978 letter to Congress that the establishment of Israeli settlements is “inconsistent with international law.”

    https://uscpr.org/yes-trump-administration-taken-position-israeli-settlements/

    Needless to say, US statements had zero effect on the push to expand settlements esp. when right wing Israeli governments took power.
  13. Zugzwang
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    21 Jul '18 20:312 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    In what sense? The US used to routinely support (or at least not veto) UN Security Council resolutions condemning Israel's settlement policy on the West Bank but the money to militarily enforce those policies always kept flowing.

    EDIT: Not only has the United States traditionally viewed Israeli settlements as a barrier to peace; it has also deemed th ...[text shortened]... ro effect on the push to expand settlements esp. when right wing Israeli governments took power.
    No1Marauder has misunderstood (at best) or distorted (as usual) what I wrote.

    "... Israel's human rights abuses of the Palestinians."
    --Duchess64

    No1Marauder wrongly equates what I wrote to the narrower specific issue of Jewish settlements.

    It would help Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups IF the US government were more
    willing to concede the existence of Israeli human rights abuses against the Palestinians.
    Instead, the US government's usual absence of criticism helps Israel and its supporters
    in their denying that such Israeli human rights abuses even exist.

    I note that some Palestinians who are US citizens have struggled to receive support from
    the US government when they allegedly have been abused by the authorities in Israel.

    Has No1Marauder ever been in touch with any Israeli or Palestinian human rights group?
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    21 Jul '18 20:41
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    No1Marauder has misunderstood (at best) or distorted (as usual) what I wrote.

    "... Israel's human rights abuses of the Palestinians."
    --Duchess64

    No1Marauder wrongly equates what I wrote to the narrower specific issue of Jewish settlements.

    It would help Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups IF the US government were more
    willing to con ...[text shortened]... srael.

    Has No1Marauder ever been in touch with any Israeli or Palestinian human rights group?
    That was an example not meant to be exhaustive.

    In fact, up until this year, the US State Department published a yearly report documenting Israeli human right abuses in the occupied territories and Israel itself:

    In previous years, the State Department produced joint but separate chapters on “Israel” and “The Occupied Territories.” This year the State Department renamed the chapters “Israel and the Golan Heights” and the “West Bank and Gaza.” Additionally, the report almost entirely removes any reference to the occupation. Occupying powers have particular responsibilities under international humanitarian law and obscuring the nature of Israel’s control undermines efforts to hold Israel to these standards.

    Also, the report goes even further than previous years in ceding to the Israeli government’s narrative on key issues. For example, last year’s report highlights “institutional and societal discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel” as among Israel’s “most significant human rights problems.” This is gone in this year’s report, a trend across many chapters of removing societal discrimination from the top line summaries.

    In fact, the “Israel and the Golan Heights” chapter explicitly omits to mention Israel’s two-tiered discriminatory system in Jerusalem, where Israeli policy explicitly sets out as a goal “maintaining a solid Jewish majority in the city.” Instead, the report speaks of “Israeli residents of Jerusalem” – which presumably includes illegal Jewish settlers in East Jerusalem – explicitly leaving almost all mention of Palestinian residents in Jerusalem to the “West Bank and Gaza” chapter.

    This year’s report also diverges from previous years by noting its drafters “sought and received input from the government of Israel (and, where relevant, the Palestinian Authority) with regard to allegations of human rights abuses.” Notably, this type of caveat or sourcing explanation does not appear in the chapters of other close US allies like Japan, the United Kingdom, France, or Germany.

    The US has for decades failed to sufficiently use its leverage to pressure Israel’s government to end decades of repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuse of Palestinians’ rights. This year’s report, though, speaks to the shift under the Trump administration to further whitewashing of those abuses, even while acknowledging, at times, that abuses against Palestinians have been independently documented by groups like Human Rights Watch.

    https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/04/24/us-human-rights-report-whitewashes-israels-abuses-against-palestinians
  15. Zugzwang
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    21 Jul '18 21:23
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    That was an example not meant to be exhaustive.

    In fact, up until this year, the US State Department published a yearly report documenting Israeli human right abuses in the occupied territories and Israel itself:

    In previous years, the State Department produced joint but separate chapters on “Israel” and “The Occupied Territories.” This year the ...[text shortened]... w.hrw.org/news/2018/04/24/us-human-rights-report-whitewashes-israels-abuses-against-palestinians
    I am aware that the US government has (however grudgingly) acknowledged *some*
    Israeli human rights abuses of the Palestinians. I believe that it *could* be helpful if the
    US government were willing to acknowledge *more* such Israeli human rights abuses.
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