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Debates Forum

  1. Donation buckky
    Filthy sinner
    11 Sep '11 13:14
    I feel they are milking the 911 thing to death.
  2. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    11 Sep '11 17:46
    Originally posted by buckky
    I feel they are milking the 911 thing to death.
    It's called pathos. Every empire depends on it.
  3. 11 Sep '11 18:07
    It's the ten year anniversary of a great tragedy. You can choose to ignore it, just as soon as you get over it.
  4. 11 Sep '11 18:56
    I think the hype does nothing but encourage our enemies.

    Any memorial we build towards it is nothing more than a shrine to the Muslims who hate us.
  5. 11 Sep '11 19:05
    Originally posted by buckky
    I feel they are milking the 911 thing to death.
    The attention given to 9/11 does seem to evoke strong feelings and opinions. Maybe in the coming years when it stops doing that, things will subside.
  6. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    11 Sep '11 19:15
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    It's called pathos. Every empire depends on it.
    So we in the US are being what, cynical and commercial or something if we commemorate that awful time? Don't forget, 300 of those killed were Islam. That didn't matter to the mad bombers.

    I was at red cross headquarters there for 24 hours and saw the chaos that happened up close so don't try to denigrate a terrible day in our history.

    They say Al Qaeda dudes were disappointed they didn't off 30,000 people because the towers didn't go down instantly so we saved 90 percent of the people.

    They also must have been ticked the plane went down in Pennsylvania rather than the white house or whatever they had targeted. There were hero's on that flight who died rather than let that happen.

    So take your cynicism and shove it.
  7. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    11 Sep '11 19:52
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So we in the US are being what, cynical and commercial or something if we commemorate that awful time? Don't forget, 300 of those killed were Islam. That didn't matter to the mad bombers.

    I was at red cross headquarters there for 24 hours and saw the chaos that happened up close so don't try to denigrate a terrible day in our history.

    They say Al Qaed ...[text shortened]... that flight who died rather than let that happen.

    So take your cynicism and shove it.
    I don't denigrate the day. I denigrate the trappings of Empire that have come to festoon it. We have not learned from our mistakes, and after 10 years have come no closer to understanding how the occurrence of the event is inextricably intertwined with the consequences of an imperialist foreign policy. If we do not learn from our mistakes then the 3,000 will truly have died for nothing.

    I got a thing in the mail yesterday asking to contribute to a fund to build a $30 million memorial for Flight 93. That is ridiculous. If I were one of those who died in that event I would still think it was ridiculous (were I resurrected and asked the question); if I knew someone who died aboard Flight 93 I'd still think it was ridiculous. $30 million dollars could set up a lot of free health care clinics. You talk an awful lot about the waste of organized religion in the Spirituality Forum, and nationalism is just another religion.

    So yes, the whole thing is over the top. The proceedings make it hard for me not to notice that Americans evidently think their tragedies are of inherently greater importance than the tragedies of other nations. I'm not saying you're one such individual, by any means, but it's impossible for me to not get that sense from all this pomp and circumstance.
  8. Subscriber invigorate
    Only 1 F in Uckfield
    11 Sep '11 20:00
    9/11 was truly horrific. We should remember those who lost their lives and those whose lives were changed forever from that day forward.

    Including:
    4000 troops killed in Iraq
    1100 troops killed in Afghanistan

    But lets also remember the 8,000+ Afghan civilians killed and the astonishing figure of 864,000+ Iraqi civilians killed in subsequent conflicts!



    Source: http://www.unknownnews.org/casualties.html
  9. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    11 Sep '11 20:03
    Originally posted by invigorate
    9/11 was truly horrific. We should remember those who lost their lives and those whose lives were changed forever from that day forward.

    Including:
    4000 troops killed in Iraq
    1100 troops killed in Afghanistan

    But lets also remember the 8,000+ Afghan civilians killed and the astonishing figure of 864,000+ Iraqi civilians killed in subsequent conflicts!



    Source: http://www.unknownnews.org/casualties.html
    And over 20,000 were killed in Japan exactly 6 months ago today.
  10. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    11 Sep '11 20:09
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    I don't denigrate the day. I denigrate the trappings of Empire that have come to festoon it. We have not learned from our mistakes, and after 10 years have come no closer to understanding how the occurrence of the event is inextricably intertwined with the consequences of an imperialist foreign policy. If we do not learn from our mistakes then the 3,000 ...[text shortened]... eans, but it's impossible for me to not get that sense from all this pomp and circumstance.
    Nobody is trying to say our tragedies are worse than other countries, I am aghast at the 200,000 victims of the Indonesian Tsunami. That was however, not an act of terrorism.

    I also lived in Jerusalem for 3 years and saw injustice on a pretty large scale there, people dying from Israeli attacks and Jews dying from suicide bombers. I myself got shot at once in Jerusalem and one of our dear friends was 20 feet from a suicide bomber and his head landed on her lap, she was a busker, violinist, and lost her instruments and stayed in our flat for 3 days so she could unwind a bit, and get all the broken glass out of her hair. She was one of the lucky ones to have survived at all.

    I know Americans are provincial and we tend to think of the US as the only country worth considering in the world but I am not one of them. I have worked and lived in many places around the world and I know exactly what conditions are like outside the US.

    Any country in the world would make tributes to the fallen hero's of an act of terrorism on the scale of 9/11.

    Your profile says you live in Pennsylvania. Were you born here? You call yourself a mathematician, is that what you do for a living?
  11. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    11 Sep '11 20:15
    The reason this is considered so much more important IMO is that 1) rich people died and lost lots of money and 2) it had an associated enemy to attack.
  12. 11 Sep '11 20:22
    Originally posted by invigorate
    9/11 was truly horrific. We should remember those who lost their lives and those whose lives were changed forever from that day forward.

    Including:
    4000 troops killed in Iraq
    1100 troops killed in Afghanistan

    But lets also remember the 8,000+ Afghan civilians killed and the astonishing figure of 864,000+ Iraqi civilians killed in subsequent conflicts!



    Source: http://www.unknownnews.org/casualties.html
    I tend not to believe civilian casualty figures from activist websites. While their cause is noble, they tend to uncritically use the highest estimates ever tallied.

    With that being said what happened on 9-11 is unique. Natural disasters happen and they can cause many thousands of deaths. The same is true for war, it's just expected.

    Why 9-11 is given such attention isn't solely the body count involved. What happened is as important for why it gets so much attention.
  13. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    11 Sep '11 20:33
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Nobody is trying to say our tragedies are worse than other countries, I am aghast at the 200,000 victims of the Indonesian Tsunami. That was however, not an act of terrorism.

    I also lived in Jerusalem for 3 years and saw injustice on a pretty large scale there, people dying from Israeli attacks and Jews dying from suicide bombers. I myself got shot at o ...[text shortened]... vania. Were you born here? You call yourself a mathematician, is that what you do for a living?
    I tend to say very little about 9/11 until one of these anniversaries come up and it becomes impossible to ignore the topic, at which time it is then deemed to be "inappropriate" to say anything about the event that is not of a commemorative nature. Now I've said my piece and I'll say nothing more unless prompted.

    Yes, I gather you're far more cosmopolitan than the everyman in the American hinterlands; and yes, it is only natural that a nation take its own tragedies to be more newsworthy than the tragedies of faraway lands. But few nations have quite the same lofty notions about themselves as one finds in the doctrine of "American exceptionalism". If there ever were a star to steer by that leads straight to hell, "American exceptionalism" is it. The U.S. is still following this light to its own detriment, and the annual premium for this "privilege" can only be paid in blood. The blood of others as well as our own.

    I was born in California, but moved to Pennsylvania about a year before the towers fell. I primarily teach mathematics at the college level, but spend the bulk of my free time studying mathematics as well. Also I'm creating some mathematics textbooks, which I plan to make available for free online.
  14. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    11 Sep '11 20:36 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The reason this is considered so much more important IMO is that 1) rich people died and lost lots of money and 2) it had an associated enemy to attack.
    Yes. It should be noted for the record that the 1000+ people who died in Hurricane Katrina get about two orders of magnitude less notice than those who died in 9/11. Failures in imperial domestic policy do not get as much airtime as attacks by a swarthy bogeyman who was created by failures in imperial foreign policy.

    EDIT: Okay, now I'll say nothing more about 9/11 unless prompted.
  15. 11 Sep '11 20:37
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    I tend to say very little about 9/11 until one of these anniversaries come up and it becomes impossible to ignore the topic, at which time it is then deemed to be "inappropriate" to say anything about the event that is not of a commemorative nature. Now I've said my piece and I'll say nothing more unless prompted.

    Yes, I gather you're far more cosmopol ...[text shortened]... creating some mathematics textbooks, which I plan to make available for free online.
    What's logbase 3 of 1?