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Debates Forum

  1. 06 Oct '17 16:14
    Of some of the ways it has been abused my it's molester parent, the US:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=658YZO_CmOk
  2. 06 Oct '17 23:39
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    Of some of the ways it has been abused my it's molester parent, the US:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=658YZO_CmOk
    Does Zahlanzi want Puerto Rico to declare independence from the USA immediately and forego all US aid?
  3. 07 Oct '17 11:26
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Does Zahlanzi want Puerto Rico to declare independence from the USA immediately and forego all US aid?
    LMAO!

    No, I'm sure he wants Puerto Rico to become a state so they can vote Dim. Of course, if they really want abuse, that would be the route to go.

    Meanwhile he supports an ever increasing power hungry Federal government to inflict more abuse upon the world.
  4. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    07 Oct '17 11:35
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Does Zahlanzi want Puerto Rico to declare independence from the USA immediately and forego all US aid?
    Aid?

    US aid????
  5. 07 Oct '17 11:39
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Aid?

    US aid????
    Well in a Dim perfect world the UN would mandate a tax on the US so the money could come from the UN instead of the US, but all of those Trump hating people will gladly take money from the US federal government without any qualms.
  6. 07 Oct '17 21:05 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Aid?
    US aid????
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_in_Puerto_Rico

    "According to the Consolidated Federal Funds Report compiled by the U.S. Census Bureau,
    Puerto Rico has received more than $21 billion annually in federal aid from the United States."

    I have (or had) a relative in Puerto Rico. (I don't know if she has departed after the hurricane.)
    She does not support independence for Puerto Rico because the loss of US aid would
    hurt some of the poorest people there. And it could become harder for her to travel as
    freely as she does to and from the mainland USA (where she has many relatives).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_status_referendum,_2017

    "A referendum on the political status of Puerto Rico was held in Puerto Rico on June 11, 2017.[1]
    The referendum had three options: becoming a state of the United States, independence/free association,
    or maintaining the current territorial status.[2] Those who voted overwhelmingly chose
    statehood by 97%; turnout, however, was 23%, a historically low figure.[3]
    This figure is attributed to a boycott led by the pro-status quo PPD party."

    "The referendum was boycotted by all the major parties against statehood for several reasons.
    One reason is that the title of the ballot asserted that Puerto Rico is a colony.[a]
    The Popular Democratic Party (PPD) has historically rejected that notion.
    Similarly, under the option for maintaining the status quo, the ballot also asserted that
    Puerto Rico is subject to the plenary powers of the United States Congress, a notion
    also historically rejected by the PPD.[b] Likewise, under the 'independence/free association' option,
    the ballot asserted that Puerto Rico must be a sovereign nation in order to enter into a
    compact of free association with the United States.[c] Supporters of the free association
    movement reject this notion. Had these parties participated in the referendum, they claim
    it would mean they had accepted those assertions implicitly, regardless of whether the
    assertions were correct or not."
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    07 Oct '17 22:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_in_Puerto_Ricothe E

    "According to the Consolidated Federal Funds Report by the U.S. Census Bureau,
    Puerto Rico has received more than $21 billion annually in federal aid from the United States."

    I have (or had) a relative in Puerto Rico. (I don't know if she has departed after the hurricane.)
    She does not su ...[text shortened]... cepted those assertions implicitly, regardless of whether the
    assertions were correct or not."
    Odd then that Puerto Rico has $72billion in debt, annual revenues of just $800m, and is bankrupt, before suffering the impact of recent hurricane damage, which is immense.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-puertorico-congress/u-s-aid-to-puerto-rico-seen-topping-30-billion-congressional-aide-idUSKCN1C32MC

    The flow of "aid" has to be seen in terms of where it goes to and who benefits. The Puerto Rico economy is a confusing one to understand, as it has been distorted since the 1920s by US corporation tax policies designed to further its nascent imperial ambitions, and was thrown into chaos by Bill Clinton's decision to stop this arrangement in mid flight as it were. e.g.:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-05/puerto-rico-s-economic-disaster-was-made-in-washington

    Make sense of that if you can, what remains is the appreciation that Puerto Rico's bankrupt economy is a strange product of US politics and corporate welfare policies. Clinton decided to throw the economy into chaos - it would seem reasonable to expect him or the federal government to make some effort to alleviate the harm this caused to its own citizens without having to describe this as some type of charity.

    When discussing "aid" outside the context of the recent hurricane, this is what needs to be remembered. This and the reality that Puerto Rico is, in a decidedly American Empire sort of a way, part of the US. In Europe for example, there would be no need to describe as "aid" a flow of funds from the EU to one of its poorer member states, so in what sense is the flow of Federal funds to US citizens in Puerto Rico really about "aid" and not just about government doing what it ought to for its own citizens (for a change)?

    Americans are so pig ignorant about geography they have to be reminded that Puerto Ricans are US citizens.

    By the way - notice in my second link how US pharmaceutical firms moved jobs from Puerto Rico to Ireland to enjoy comparable tax breaks. It really is a dog eat dog world under global capitalism and small states are simply too easy for large corporations to take advantage of.
  8. 07 Oct '17 23:25 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Odd then that Puerto Rico has $72billion in debt, annual revenues of just $800m, and is bankrupt, before suffering the impact of recent hurricane damage, which is immense.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-puertorico-congress/u-s-aid-to-puerto-rico-seen-topping-30-billion-congressional-aide-idUSKCN1C32MC

    The flow of "aid" has to be seen in te ...[text shortened]... bal capitalism and small states are simply too easy for large corporations to take advantage of.
    Zahlanzi has used the metaphor of Puerto Rico as an abused (adopted) child of the USA.
    Before declaring independence, that abused child knows that she still has need of aid from her parent.
    Most Puerto Ricans ask the pragmatic question: "Will our lives today be better off with or without the USA?"

    Puerto Rican citizenship status is complex. Some, though not all, American ignorance is understandable.

    https://www.salon.com/2017/09/28/are-puerto-ricans-really-american-citizens_partner-2/

    "Are Puerto Ricans really American citizens?
    Ambiguity surrounds the citizenship of Puerto Ricans, affecting the federal response to Hurricane Maria."

    "In a recent poll, 41 percent of respondents said they did not believe that Puerto Ricans
    were U.S. citizens, and 15 percent were not sure. Only 43 percent answered that Puerto
    Ricans were U.S. citizens. Today, being born in Puerto Rico is tantamount to being born
    in the United States. But it wasn’t always that way, and a lot of ambiguity still remains.

    Contrary to what many people believe, the Jones Act, which Congress passed 100 years ago,
    was neither the first nor last citizenship statute for Puerto Ricans. Since 1898, Congress
    has debated 101 bills related to citizenship in Puerto Rico and enacted 11 overlapping
    citizenship laws. Over time, these bills have conferred three different types of citizenship
    to persons born in Puerto Rico."

    "Since Jan. 13, 1941, birth in Puerto Rico amounts to birth in the United States for citizenship purposes.
    However, the prevailing consensus among scholars, lawmakers and policymakers is that
    Puerto Ricans are not entitled to a constitutional citizenship status. While Puerto Ricans
    are officially U.S. citizens, the territory remains unincorporated. This contradiction has
    enabled the governance of Puerto Rico as a separate and unequal territory that belongs
    to, but is not a part of, the United States."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_citizenship

    "Puerto Rican citizenship was first legislated by the United States Congress in Article 7
    of the Foraker Act of 1900[1] and later recognized in the Constitution of Puerto Rico."

    "The United States government also continues to recognize a Puerto Rican nationality.[8]
    Puerto Rican citizenship is also recognized by the Spanish Government, which recognizes
    Puerto Ricans as a people with Puerto Rican, and not American citizenship. It also grants
    Spanish citizenship to Puerto Ricans on the basis of their Puerto Rican, not American, citizenship.
    On November 18, 1997, the Supreme Court of Puerto Rico, through its ruling in Miriam J. Ramirez
    de Ferrer v. Juan Mari Brás, reaffirmed the standing existence of the Puerto Rican citizenship."
  9. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    08 Oct '17 10:09 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64US forces to a country which had already
    Zahlanzi has used the metaphor of Puerto Rico as an abused (adopted) child of the USA.
    Before declaring independence, that abused child knows that she still has need of aid from her parent.
    Most Puerto Ricans ask the pragmatic question: "Will our lives today be better off with or without the USA?"

    Puerto Rican ...[text shortened]... de Ferrer v. Juan Mari Brás, reaffirmed the standing existence of the Puerto Rican citizenship."
    Yep - like the Phillipines or Guam, Puerto Rico is a part of the USA's imperial heritage that is best overlooked today as it does not fit the fairy story they like to tell themselves. One of the great complaints about John F Kennedy was that he lost China: "Senator Styles Bridges of New Hampshire made these observations on the floor of the U.S. Senate on July 18, 1950: When an Army officer loses a battalion, he is relieved of his command, in disgrace. When a naval officer loses his ship or runs it aground, in the mud, he is court-martialed. But when foreign policy advisers lose a whole continent they are applauded or even promoted." Kennedy had this in mind when he stupidly committed US forces to a country he knew nothing much about and whose people had already defeated and evicted the Fench: Vietnam. Through to present day US engagements in the Muslim world and Korea, what marks it out so strikingly to observors is the extent to which US policy is based on racist caricatures and plain ignorance of other societies. Edward Said tried to point this out in patient detail in his work "Orientalism" and has been vilified for his troubles, but he was right and the US could have learned a lot from him.
  10. 08 Oct '17 21:45 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Yep - like the Phillipines or Guam, Puerto Rico is a part of the USA's imperial heritage that is best overlooked today as it does not fit the fairy story they like to tell themselves. One of the great complaints about John F Kennedy was that he lost China: "[i]Senator Styles Bridges of New Hampshire made these observations on the floor of the U.S. Sen ...[text shortened]... s been vilified for his troubles, but he was right and the US could have learned a lot from him.
    "Edward Said tried to point this out in patient detail in his work "Orientalism" and has been vilified for his troubles."
    --Finnegan

    I (slightly) knew Edward Said and generally admired him. I also knew academics who
    knew him better than I did, including one of his former roommates at Princeton University.
    Regarding _Orientalism_, many scholars of Arab heritage believe that, while it's rightly
    a seminal work, Edward Said (who's not a historian) got some of the details wrong and
    oversimplified matters in arguing his case.

    Although, as a Palestinian, Edward Said was marginalized in the USA, he still had some
    voice in the mainstream US media, including being interviewed on television by Charlie Rose.

    Several years before Edward Said's death, I had an interesting conversation with an Arab student.
    Edward Said often was the target of death threats in the USA, to the extent that one of his
    friends revealed (after his death) that the NYPD has a special direct 'hot' line to his home.
    I remarked to this Arab student that I hoped that Edward Said would not be murdered.
    The Arab student smiled at me and said: "Don't worry. We know (how?) that he must be
    protected by the CIA because the Americans will need him in future peace negotiations."
    I construed his comment as evidence of a conspiratorial turn of mind among many Arabs.
    I was much less confident that Edward Said had some secret CIA bodyguards assigned to him.
    That said, the CIA has cooperated--for the benefit of the USA--with even some 'militant'
    Palestinian leaders, such as Ali Hassan Salameh (who was assassinated by Israel).