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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 19 Dec '13 14:42
    Here is a nice (by nice i mean soul crushing) youtube about exactly how "dominant" women are in our society.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NswJ4kO9uHc#t=130

    first part is about how the position of women is improving. the second part (and longer) is about how it isn't improving fast enough.

    quotes:
    "women should pay more for health insurance because they have breasts and ovaries, says fox expert"
    again from fox:
    "i am not saying she deserves to be raped, but" . Anything following that but is sure to be abject.
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    19 Dec '13 19:16
    Why is it okay for me to have to pay higher car (and life) insurance because I'm a guy, but it's not okay for women to pay higher health insurance rates, even though they more potential health issues?
  3. 19 Dec '13 19:19
    Originally posted by vivify
    Why is it okay for me to have to pay higher car (and life) insurance because I'm a guy, but it's not okay for women to pay higher health insurance rates, even though they more potential health issues?
    Yes, that's what some people believe.

    Now that women have been liberated it is about time that they stop getting special treatment.
  4. 19 Dec '13 20:03
    Originally posted by vivify
    Why is it okay for me to have to pay higher car (and life) insurance because I'm a guy, but it's not okay for women to pay higher health insurance rates, even though they more potential health issues?
    That's a nonsense argument, though, because men have testicles and prostates.
  5. 20 Dec '13 09:53
    Originally posted by vivify
    Why is it okay for me to have to pay higher car (and life) insurance because I'm a guy, but it's not okay for women to pay higher health insurance rates, even though they more potential health issues?
    err, do you? where?

    no, it is not ok. what is the stated reason for this?

    "even though they more potential health issues?"
    i don't agree. you can have prostate cancer. and fat people have higher heart failures risks. miners have lung problems. i do not agree with different rates just because of where you work, and pre-existent conditions.
  6. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    20 Dec '13 13:38
    Originally posted by vivify
    Why is it okay for me to have to pay higher car (and life) insurance because I'm a guy, but it's not okay for women to pay higher health insurance rates, even though they more potential health issues?
    You ask a valid question. I'm not sure how insurance companies justify charging men more.
  7. 20 Dec '13 13:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by bill718
    You ask a valid question. I'm not sure how insurance companies justify charging men more.
    A man under the age of 25 has higher car insurance rates because statistically they are more likely to get into car accidents and hence file a claim.

    Once you get to the age of 25 and then to 30 that price drops significantly because the stats show that the chances of you filing a claim goes down significantly.
  8. Standard member vivify
    rain
    20 Dec '13 14:33
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    err, do you? where?

    no, it is not ok. what is the stated reason for this?

    "even though they more potential health issues?"
    i don't agree. you can have prostate cancer. and fat people have higher heart failures risks. miners have lung problems. i do not agree with different rates just because of where you work, and pre-existent conditions.
    I live in NY, and that's women pay lower car insurance rates. I'm not sure, but I think that's all over the U.S. as well.
  9. Standard member vivify
    rain
    20 Dec '13 14:45 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    A man under the age of 25 has higher car insurance rates because statistically they are more likely to get into car accidents and hence file a claim.

    Once you get to the age of 25 and then to 30 that price drops significantly because the stats show that the chances of you filing a claim goes down significantly.
    Yes, and that makes sense; likewise, women have greater potential for health problems, and often do have more health issues:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2013%2F08%2F05%2Fhealth-conditions-women_n_3695162.html&ei=wVW0UsTSCsfayAHT2oDoBg&usg=AFQjCNE6IRRIfF_TZEOlyJUnfITn6HjQlQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.aWc


    There are some diseases and conditions that only affect women, and others that most of us immediately, if not exclusively, associate with them, like breast cancer (although men can get it, too) and eating disorders (same thing).

    But there are also a slew of health problems are far less likely to be recognized as issues disproportionately impacting women, which means many struggle to get help and answers -- for months and even years at a time. At the top of that list are autoimmune disorders, which occur when the body's immune system attacks itself, and that are far more common in women than in men. For some autoimmune diseases, such as lupus, 9 out of 10 people affected are women,


    https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/womenshealth/conditioninfo/Pages/howconditions.aspx

    As many as 5.3 million women in the United States abuse alcohol, putting their health, safety, and general well-being at risk. While men are more likely to become dependent on, or addicted to, alcohol than women are throughout their lifetime, the health effects of alcohol abuse and alcoholism (when someone shows signs of addiction to alcohol) are more serious in women. These health effects include an increased risk for breast cancer, heart disease, and fetal alcohol syndrome, in which infants born to mothers who drank during pregnancy suffer brain damage and learning difficulties.

    Heart disease.4 Heart disease is the leading cause of death for women in the United States. Although heart disease is also the leading cause of death for men in the United States, women are more likely to die following a heart attack than men are. In addition, women are more likely than men are to experience delays in emergency care and to have treatment to control their cholesterol levels.

    Mental health. Women are more likely to show signs of depression and anxiety than men are. Depression is the most common women’s mental health problem,5 and more women than men are diagnosed with depression each year.6

    Osteoarthritis. Osteoarthritis is the most common form of arthritis. It causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling. Arthritis is the leading cause of physical disability in the United States. The condition affects almost 27 million people, and affects more women than men.7

    Sexually transmitted diseases/sexually transmitted infections (STDs/STIs).8 The effect of STDs/STIs on women can be more serious than on men.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329398/Women-suffer-mental-health-problems-men-stress-juggling-roles-according-study.html


    Women experience more mental health problems than men due to the stress of juggling many roles, according to a new book.


    So since women statistically have more health problems, again, why is that is "wrong" for them to pay higher health insurance rates, while men must pay higher car insurance rates?
  10. 20 Dec '13 15:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify

    So since women statistically have more health problems, again, why is that is "wrong" for them to pay higher health insurance rates, while men must pay higher car insurance rates?
    I'm not completely sure that your statistics are globally valid so I'm not going to simply accept your claim that women have more health problems - even with the links that you provided. Especially since even in the items you quoted it even suggests that some of these increased risks are due to more than just gender differences.

    Car insurance is different than health insurance. For one, not ALL men pay higher car insurance rates at all ages. These equal out over time.

    I don't really care that much about the moral question about it being wrong or not or getting into that discussion since frankly, I think it's a bit more complex than you are making it out to be.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    20 Dec '13 16:03
    Originally posted by dryhump
    That's a nonsense argument, though, because men have testicles and prostates.
    It's not nonsense at all. I don't know whether testicles and prostate outweighs ovaries and breasts, but I'll bet the actuaries do.

    If women pay less in life insurance and auto insurance premiums because the actuaries say they're less of a risk to die or get into an accident (as they do), it's common sense that, if the actuaries say that women are higher health insurance risks at certain ages because of pregnancies and breasts, the insurance companies should be allowed to make gender distinction in health insurance.

    If you want to ban all gender distinctions in insurance, I suppose there's some justification for that, then fine, apply the ban to life and auto insurance as well.
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    20 Dec '13 16:07 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    I'm not completely sure that your statistics are globally valid so I'm not going to simply accept your claim that women have more health problems - even with the links that you provided. Especially since even in the items you quoted it even suggests that some of these increased risks are due to more than just gender differences.

    Car insurance is diffe ...[text shortened]... that discussion since frankly, I think it's a bit more complex than you are making it out to be.
    You're hemming and hawing about the validity of the assumptions, but that's completely beside the point.

    Two questions:

    1) If actuarially valid data shows conclusively that an 18 year old man is a greater auto insurance risk than an 18 year old man, should insurance companies be allowed to charge the man a higher premium?

    2) If actuarially valid data shows conclusively that a 25 year old woman is a greater heath insurance risk than a 25 year old man, should insurance companies be allowed to charge the woman a higher premium?
  13. 20 Dec '13 16:21 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    You're hemming and hawing about the validity of the assumptions, but that's completely beside the point.

    Two questions:

    1) If actuarially valid data shows conclusively that an 18 year old man is a greater auto insurance risk than an 18 year old man, should insurance companies be allowed to charge the man a higher premium?

    2) If actuarially valid data s ...[text shortened]... n a 25 year old man, should insurance companies be allowed to charge the woman a higher premium?
    You're hemming and hawing about the validity of the assumptions, but that's completely beside the point.

    I disagree. It's not beside the point because that's what he's basing his argument on.

    1) If actuarially valid data shows conclusively that an 18 year old man is a greater auto insurance risk than an 18 year old man, should insurance companies be allowed to charge the man a higher premium?

    2) If actuarially valid data shows conclusively that a 25 year old woman is a greater heath insurance risk than a 25 year old man, should insurance companies be allowed to charge the woman a higher premium?


    Maybe.

    Car insurance companies base their rates on actual "actuarially valid data" that I don't think are fair also - like credit scores. Why should a great driver with a low credit score pay more than their virtual twin who is a horrible driver but has a high credit score?
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    20 Dec '13 17:27
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    [b]You're hemming and hawing about the validity of the assumptions, but that's completely beside the point.

    I disagree. It's not beside the point because that's what he's basing his argument on.

    1) If actuarially valid data shows conclusively that an 18 year old man is a greater auto insurance risk than an 18 year old man, should insurance co ...[text shortened]... dit score pay more than their virtual twin who is a horrible driver but has a high credit score?
    Maybe people with bad credit are more likely to fail to pay premiums, forcing the companies to chase them down at the company's expense. Or if they cancel the deadbeats, maybe they lose in the administrative expense they needed to set up the policy and cancel.

    Anyway, what does "fair" have to do with any of this? Insurance companies are private companies and they can sell their services to whom they want on the open market for what the market will bear. I have no problem with civil rights laws that prevent them from discriminating based on race and whatnot. But the issue of this thread is whether there's a double standard in that actuarial data is used against men but not against women. This is a very complex issue, I'll admit, but I do think that there probably is.
  15. 20 Dec '13 17:30
    Originally posted by PsychoPawn
    A man under the age of 25 has higher car insurance rates because statistically they are more likely to get into car accidents and hence file a claim.

    Once you get to the age of 25 and then to 30 that price drops significantly because the stats show that the chances of you filing a claim goes down significantly.
    So you agree that those who cost the insurance company more should have higher premiums?

    In other words, you agree that women should have higher premiums for health insurance.