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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
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    05 Mar '19 04:354 edits
    This 'New York Times' article has at least several misleading statements,
    apparently reflecting common American journalist ignorance or bias.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-india-loses-dogfight-to-pakistan-questions-arise-about-its-vintage-military/ar-BBUkoy7?ocid=spartanntp

    "...the (Indian) plane, an aging Soviet-era MiG-21."

    Misleading. It was a Mig-21 'Bison', built by Hindustan Aeronautics in India.
    It has been much upgraded in about every way from 'Soviet-era MiG-21s'.
    It's not a state-of-the-art fighter, of course, but it's far from being
    the same aircraft on display in a museum.

    "The American military began prioritizing its alliance with India as
    its close relationship with Pakistan soured over the last two decades"

    True. In the 1990s, the USA reneged on a contract to supply 28 more
    F-16 fighters (which were already paid for) to Pakistan. Pakistan regarded
    that as more evidence that the USA could not be trusted as an ally.
    Pakistan regards China, not the USA, as its closest and most reliable ally.

    "In just a decade, United States arms sales to India have gone from
    nearly zero to $15 billion."

    India's the world largest importer of arms, from countries as diverse
    as Russia, France, and Israel in addition to the USA. India's airpower
    is based primarily on Russian and secondarily on French aircraft.

    "But Pakistan can still draw on a powerful American-supplied arsenal."

    Misleading. Most of Pakistan's arms are Chinese, not American.
    While Pakistan has some early model (old) American F-16 fighters,
    its air force is most proud of the newer JF-17 fighter, which
    was designed in China and now is built in Pakistan.

    "It shares a long border with southern and western China and controls
    important territorial waters Beijing needs for its maritime trade routes.
    All that can help the United States try to box in its rival."

    The US government routinely denies that it's attempting 'to contain China'.
    China's government has no reason to believe the USA.

    "“As China rises and the United States fights to keep its dominance..."

    Some Americans are honest enough to admit that the USA's ready
    to do everything that it can 'to keep its dominance' over China.

    "China’s economic boom has allowed it to invest aggressively in
    buying top military hardware and producing it at home."

    Extremely misleading, if 'it' refers to 'top military hardware' bought abroad.
    This statement appeals to the popular racist belief that all Chinese
    engineers are incapable of designing or producing anything original.
    This statement falsely implies that all (or at least all the best) Chinese
    weapons are copies of imported technology. In fact, nearly all of China's
    weapons today (in contrast to a few decades ago) were designed in China.
    That includes the missiles, tanks and other armored vehicles, and
    almost all aircraft and ships. The most advanced Chinese fighter,
    the J-20, was designed in China, though (until a new Chinese engine
    is ready) it may use a Russian-designed engine. (The engine issue
    is the major bottleneck in Chinese high performance aircraft design.)

    The article also implicitly much exaggerates Chinese arms purchases,
    which are much less than India's. Some countries would like to sell
    much more to China. China bought 24 Sukhoi Su-35 fighters from
    Russia (which hoped to sell many more). China wanted to buy fewer,
    but Russia insisted on at least 24.

    To sum up, the article gives a rather distorted and factually misleading
    view (typical of American journalism) of the military-strategic situation.
  2. Behind the scenes
    Joined
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    05 Mar '19 15:211 edit
    @duchess64 said
    This 'New York Times' article has at least several misleading statements,
    apparently reflecting common American journalist ignorance or bias.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-india-loses-dogfight-to-pakistan-questions-arise-about-its-vintage-military/ar-BBUkoy7?ocid=spartanntp

    "...the (Indian) plane, an aging Soviet-era MiG-21."

    Misleading. It was a Mig ...[text shortened]... and factually misleading
    view (typical of American journalism) of the military-strategic situation.
    This 'New York Times' article has at least several misleading statements, apparently reflecting common American journalist ignorance or bias.




    It's interesting that 95% of Duchess's posts highlight the ignorance or bias of others (except Duchess)
  3. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
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    05 Mar '19 15:571 edit
    @mchill
    From what I read, the Indians launched a dozen fighters to that battle and lost one. Doesn't seem like that big a deal to be touted as a huge win for Pakistan. The Indians DID destroy the intended terrorist base target.
    Anyway, that dogfight could have gone either way and was probably more a battle of dogfight skills than any supposed superiority of the individual jets.
  4. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Mar '19 19:48
    @mchill said
    This 'New York Times' article has at least several misleading statements, apparently reflecting common American journalist ignorance or bias.




    It's interesting that 95% of Duchess's posts highlight the ignorance or bias of others (except Duchess)
    I suspect that, as usual, Mchill prefers to stay ignorant and misinformed, in accordance with his prejudices.
  5. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Mar '19 19:54
    @sonhouse said
    @mchill
    From what I read, the Indians launched a dozen fighters to that battle and lost one. Doesn't seem like that big a deal to be touted as a huge win for Pakistan. The Indians DID destroy the intended terrorist base target.
    Anyway, that dogfight could have gone either way and was probably more a battle of dogfight skills than any supposed superiority of the individual jets.
    Sonhouse has completely missed the point that the shooting down of an Indian fighter
    and Pakistan's capture of it pilot was regarded as a 'big deal' throughout INDIA,
    among the politicians, the media, and the public. India held a national celebration
    when the pilot was released; he was treated like a national hero (after losing a battle).

    I believe that India's air force (which is much larger) is stronger overall than Pakistan's.
    The Indian MiG-21 Bison would be inferior, however, to two types of Pakistan's fighters:
    the JF-17 (designed in China, built in Pakistan) and the F-16.
    India's Sukhoi Su-30, Mikoyan MiG-29, and Dassault Mirage 2000 are much more
    advanced than the MiG-21 Bison.
  6. Joined
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    06 Mar '19 21:41
    @duchess64 said
    Sonhouse has completely missed the point that the shooting down of an Indian fighter
    and Pakistan's capture of it pilot was regarded as a 'big deal' throughout INDIA,
    among the politicians, the media, and the public. India held a national celebration
    when the pilot was released; he was treated like a national hero (after losing a battle).

    I believe that India's air ...[text shortened]... ukhoi Su-30, Mikoyan MiG-29, and Dassault Mirage 2000 are much more
    advanced than the MiG-21 Bison.
    I'm travelling through India for the first time for three weeks as from Saturday. One hopes that hostilities have now ceased....
  7. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    06 Mar '19 22:18
    @indonesia-phil said
    I'm travelling through India for the first time for three weeks as from Saturday. One hopes that hostilities have now ceased....
    I doubt that you need fear anything from a Pakistani air strike.
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    iEn guardia, Ingles!
    tinyurl.com/y43jqfyd
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    06 Mar '19 23:321 edit
    The Indians were fools to send a Mig-21 into territory controlled by the enemy.

    Looks like it was a Chinese JF17 that did it.
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    iEn guardia, Ingles!
    tinyurl.com/y43jqfyd
    Joined
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    07 Mar '19 00:26
    https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/28/the-indian-air-force-claims-a-mig-21-bison-managed-to-shoot-down-a-pakistan-air-force-f-16d-block-52/

    According to the IAF, the MiG-21 that was shot down on Feb. 27, 2019, was part of a formation of 8 Indian fighters which included four Sukhoi 30s, two upgraded Mirage 2000s and two MiG 21 Bisons that were dispatched to engage a package of 24 PAF jets that included eight F-16s, four Mirage-3 aircraft, four JF-17 “Thunder”.
  10. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    07 Mar '19 00:29
    @athousandyoung said
    The Indians were fools to send a Mig-21 into territory controlled by the enemy.

    Looks like it was a Chinese JF17 that did it.
    Pakistan's air force still has many Chengdu J-7s (Chinese version of the MiG-21).
    The Pakistanis regard the JF-17 as superior to the MiG-21.

    "Looks like it was a Chinese JF17 that did it."
    --AThousandYoung

    If so, it may make it easier for China / Pakistan to export the JF-17.
  11. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    07 Mar '19 00:33
    @athousandyoung said
    https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/28/the-indian-air-force-claims-a-mig-21-bison-managed-to-shoot-down-a-pakistan-air-force-f-16d-block-52/

    According to the IAF, the MiG-21 that was shot down on Feb. 27, 2019, was part of a formation of 8 Indian fighters which included four Sukhoi 30s, two upgraded Mirage 2000s and two MiG 21 Bisons that were dispatched to en ...[text shortened]... kage of 24 PAF jets that included eight F-16s, four Mirage-3 aircraft, four JF-17 “Thunder”.
    "But the most interesting part comes next. Indeed, the Indian Air Force declared that before it was crashed,
    the MiG-21 Bison managed to shoot down a Pakistan Air Force F-16D over the Line of Control."

    The American F-16D is supposed to be the best fighter that Pakistan has.
    And it was allegedly shot down by an 'obsolete' MiG-21 Bison?
  12. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    07 Mar '19 01:57
    @Duchess64
    All those planes are out of my paygrade. The only ones I worked on directly were the B47 and the F4E. That goes back a few months.
  13. Joined
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    07 Mar '19 23:26
    @duchess64 said
    I doubt that you need fear anything from a Pakistani air strike.
    I am reassured!
  14. Zugzwang
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    08 Mar '19 23:26
    @indonesia-phil said
    I am reassured!
    You could be in more danger of being trampled to death by a crowd of panicked
    Indians reacting to a rumor about a Pakistani air strike.
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