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  1. 12 Oct '10 07:58 / 1 edit
    My flatmate was telling me that Alisha was 12 years old at the time of consumation and not 9. Sure 12 years old sounds bad but at the time people would die earlier and as a form of natures way of dealing with this girls would get their periods far earlier than they do today. The point being it may be hard to get a line on what happened thousands of years ago and the bigotry found may be from a hasty form of hate.
  2. 12 Oct '10 08:12
    Also...

    Speak out against anti-Muslim bigotry
    By Abraham H. Foxman · October 11, 2010

    BOSTON (JTA) -- In recent months our society has devolved into one more and more characterized by polarization, rage, stridency and partisanship.

    We find ourselves in a time where people are put to loyalty tests, where one’s motivation in disagreeing is interpreted in the most cynical way no matter the record of the individual. And it opens one up to hyperbolic charges of one kind of another. People can’t just have different legitimate opinions anymore -- they are charged with being guilty of betrayals, of conspiracies, of abandonment of principles, of endangering all our values.

    Most symptomatic is the tendency to exploit issues associated with an ethnic, racial or religious group by reviving or updating stereotypes about a particular community.

    Unfortunately, this is not new to America. The classic case study is the treatment of African Americans.

    As American Jews we have been subjected to virulent anti-Semitism, often with the acquiescence of government or its apathy. Catholics, too, were victims of religious prejudice. As recent as 50 years ago, some questioned whether a Catholic should be president: Would John F. Kennedy be directed by the pope rather than the American people? Mormons continue to be ridiculed for their religious beliefs.

    Now, as a result of the debate surrounding the mosque near Ground Zero, we are witnessing a surge in anti-Muslim bigotry. It is evident that this surge is taking place with greater force now than at a time when one might have expected it, immediately after 9/11.

    At that time we were worried about an explosion of hatred against American Muslims, particularly after there were a few serious incidents following the terrorist tragedy. As things turned out, anti-Muslim bigotry did not explode. Yes, there were incidents, and even one is too many, but dire predictions did not materialize.

    But now, nine years later, we are seeing a surge of incidents. I believe it is related to the broader trends in America -- the lack of civility, the tendency to see enemies all around and the reinforcement of prejudicial views rather than diverse views.

    Islam is one of the world’s great religions. But like Judaism and Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism and others, if it isn’t your religion you most likely have little knowledge, if any, of its beliefs and practices. Ignorance has always been one of the common denominators of those who are bigoted against “the others.” And ignorance can breed fear, which too easily can become hatred.

    The Muslim community in America is being confronted by ugly, in-your-face religious bigotry and we must speak out against it, educate against it and label it anti-American.

    Therefore, despite the fact that there is a serious enmity between the Children of Ishmael and the Children of Isaac; despite the fact that the greatest conveyer belt for anti-Semitic incitement in the world today comes from the Muslim world -- in the Middle East, in North Africa, in Europe and even in Latin America; and despite the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaida, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his Iranian regime purport to speak in the name of Islam, and commit to end Israel’s existence and to the destruction of the Jewish people -- when religious bigotry rears its ugly head against Muslims, we must speak out.

    We must differentiate between extreme theology and ideology in Islam, and condemn it and challenge it, while at the same time define and separate it from the non-extremist ideology and theology. We must condemn the brand of Islam that venerates violence and intolerance, and welcome into the modern world the rest of Islam that rejects violence and intolerance.

    We must speak out when there are threats to burn the Muslim holy book, the Koran. ADL condemned the threat to burn the Koran on “Burn a Koran Day” in Gainesville, Fla., and spearheaded a coalition of interfaith leaders to speak out with the message of "we will not remain silent in the face of religious Intolerance.”

    We must speak out when Muslims face opposition to the legal building, expansion or relocation of their houses of worship -- their mosques, which is why we established an interfaith task force. We must speak out when Muslims are denied religious accommodation.

    We believe you fight hatred -- be it because of one’s religion, race, ethnicity -- with legitimate action and civil discourse.

    By standing up, speaking out, saying no to religious bigotry, gaining understanding and respect through education and working together, we can -- to borrow an ADL catchphrase -- make a world of difference and at the same time strengthen the fabric of our democratic and diverse society. We can do no less. We can help restore respect and civility.

    http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/10/11/2741240/op-ed-speak-out-against-anti-muslim-bigotry
  3. 12 Oct '10 10:27
    Originally posted by Lifehouse
    My flatmate was telling me that Alisha was 12 years old at the time of consumation and not 9. Sure 12 years old sounds bad but at the time people would die earlier and as a form of natures way of dealing with this girls would get their periods far earlier than they do today. The point being it may be hard to get a line on what happened thousands of years ago and the bigotry found may be from a hasty form of hate.
    What do periods have to do with anything? Is child molestation more acceptable if the child in question has already got their period?

    Besides I think your information false anyway. Nature has no idea what the current life expectancy is amongst girls.

    Many cultures in the past had a much lower age for marriage and found marrying young girls acceptable. However if we frown on it today, we should frown on it in the past too unless we can find an argument as to why it is not acceptable now but might have been in the past.
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    12 Oct '10 13:35 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    What do periods have to do with anything? Is child molestation more acceptable if the child in question has already got their period?

    Besides I think your information false anyway. Nature has no idea what the current life expectancy is amongst girls.

    Many cultures in the past had a much lower age for marriage and found marrying young girls acceptabl ...[text shortened]... less we can find an argument as to why it is not acceptable now but might have been in the past.
    Of course there's a difference. In those days the life expectancy of a person was what? 40 years? 45 years? It made sense for marriage and family rearing to start earlier.

    A 12 year old girl may be sexually mature. That we in our current society view her as a child is not anything inherent, but is based on the arbitrary rules of our current society. If a completely independent society in some other place or time wants to assign the girl's age of majority at 12, it's silly for us to condemn it.

    Even in our society, we tolerate sexual activity among young girls (certainly 14 or 15) as long as her partner is of similar age. Now there's some logic behind that rule, but it is not inherently morally mandated.
  5. 12 Oct '10 14:02 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Lifehouse
    My flatmate was telling me that Alisha was 12 years old at the time of consumation and not 9. Sure 12 years old sounds bad but at the time people would die earlier and as a form of natures way of dealing with this girls would get their periods far earlier than they do today. The point being it may be hard to get a line on what happened thousands of years ago and the bigotry found may be from a hasty form of hate.
    on what basis is she considered to have been twelve for all other sources indicate that she was six, seven when betrothed and nine when consummated.

    According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.[1][3][4] American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."[3] This issue of her virginity was of great importance to early historians who supported the Abbasid Caliphate. These historians considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate over the succession to Muhammad.[3]

    Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.[1][3][4][5][6][7] Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.[3] The marriage was delayed until after the Hijra, or migration to Medina, in 622; Aisha and her older sister Asma bint Abi Bakr only moved to Medina after Muhammad had already migrated there. After this, the wedding was celebrated very simply. The sources do not offer much more information about Aisha's childhood years, but mention that after the wedding, she continued to play with her toys, and that Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[8]

    wikipedia
  6. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    12 Oct '10 17:47
    1) girls regularly get pregnant at 14-15. 12 is not THAT crazy. 9 is, assuming adolescence started at the same time then as it does today.

    2) this is just another manifestation of the Abrahamic obsession with virgins. The Christian version of this is South African baby rape to cure STDs like AIDS.
  7. 12 Oct '10 20:46
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    What do periods have to do with anything? Is child molestation more acceptable if the child in question has already got their period?

    Besides I think your information false anyway. Nature has no idea what the current life expectancy is amongst girls.

    Many cultures in the past had a much lower age for marriage and found marrying young girls acceptabl ...[text shortened]... less we can find an argument as to why it is not acceptable now but might have been in the past.
    So you are saying that Amisha couldn't give consent even though in those times the average age of death was 30 years old and was a third of the way through life.
  8. 12 Oct '10 21:08 / 1 edit
    Don't forget that these people weren't living on the plains with lots of Buffalo to eat but lived in a desert under constant war and disease without the technology we have today. Nature would surely make changes to adjust given enough time as it does in any form of evolution. Evolution isn't about morals but what is best for the adapation and survival.
  9. 12 Oct '10 21:20
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    on what basis is she considered to have been twelve for all other sources indicate that she was six, seven when betrothed and nine when consummated.

    According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.[1][3][4] American historian Denise Spellberg states that "these specific references to the bride's ag ...[text shortened]... with her toys, and that Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[8]

    wikipedia
    Do you have a reliable source.

    Thank you.
  10. 13 Oct '10 01:57
    Originally posted by Lifehouse
    My flatmate was telling me that Alisha was 12 years old at the time of consumation and not 9. Sure 12 years old sounds bad but at the time people would die earlier and as a form of natures way of dealing with this girls would get their periods far earlier than they do today. The point being it may be hard to get a line on what happened thousands of years ago and the bigotry found may be from a hasty form of hate.
    "thousands of years ago"?

    THOUSANDS?!?
  11. Standard member uzless
    The So Fist
    13 Oct '10 02:25
    Originally posted by Lifehouse
    My flatmate was telling me that Alisha was 12 years old at the time of consumation and not 9. Sure 12 years old sounds bad but at the time people would die earlier and as a form of natures way of dealing with this girls would get their periods far earlier than they do today. The point being it may be hard to get a line on what happened thousands of years ago and the bigotry found may be from a hasty form of hate.
    joined today...made no chess moves...and went straight to the forums...what was your name before you were banned?
  12. 13 Oct '10 02:38
    Originally posted by uzless
    joined today...made no chess moves...and went straight to the forums...what was your name before you were banned?
    Yep. Kinda like you. 9000 moves in 4 years, 2 games in progress, non sub... forum pontificator.

    How long does he have to wait before he can post to get your approval?
    And who the hell are you accusing him of being banned before?
  13. 13 Oct '10 06:38
    Originally posted by sh76
    Of course there's a difference. In those days the life expectancy of a person was what? 40 years? 45 years? It made sense for marriage and family rearing to start earlier.
    The life expectancy in Zambia is below 45. Would you support 12 year old girls getting married in Zambia? Would you say it 'makes sense'?

    A 12 year old girl may be sexually mature. That we in our current society view her as a child is not anything inherent, but is based on the arbitrary rules of our current society. If a completely independent society in some other place or time wants to assign the girl's age of majority at 12, it's silly for us to condemn it.
    Yet you probably would condemn it if it was in some other place but at the current time eg Zambia, today.

    Even in our society, we tolerate sexual activity among young girls (certainly 14 or 15) as long as her partner is of similar age.
    Not sure what you mean by 'tolerate'. I sure don't support it - especially when it leads to pregnancy.
  14. 13 Oct '10 06:42
    Originally posted by Lifehouse
    So you are saying that Amisha couldn't give consent even though in those times the average age of death was 30 years old and was a third of the way through life.
    Well consent was not an issue as she would not have been asked whatever her age. The parents made the decision.

    As I have pointed out in my previous post, the life expectancy in Zambia is according to the US state department 38.63 years.

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2359.htm

    Would you support a 12 year old getting married in Zambia?
  15. 13 Oct '10 06:45
    Originally posted by Lifehouse
    Don't forget that these people weren't living on the plains with lots of Buffalo to eat but lived in a desert under constant war and disease without the technology we have today. Nature would surely make changes to adjust given enough time as it does in any form of evolution. Evolution isn't about morals but what is best for the adapation and survival.
    You clearly don't know a whole lot about evolution.

    Do you have any references to support your claim that desert warriors have earlier periods?

    Can we accuse Aishas parents of not providing adequate nutrition in addition to the child trafficking charge?