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Debates Forum

  1. 27 Feb '17 14:34
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhB5eJPEUpM

    This is the silver lining of trump's presidency:
    People are awake. People are protesting. People know who cabinet appointees are and what they stand for. Can you name any Obama cabinet member without googling? Of course not, because none were as incompetent as Betsy DeVos or Ben Carson, none were too racist to be a federal judge in the freakin 80's.

    People know who their congressman is and are burning the phone lines calling them on many issues.

    Maybe Trump will be good for america. Maybe he will be so incompetent and so toxic for its well being that never again will the americans be so sedated to elect a baboon to their highest office. Maybe it will mean the end of the republican party and hopefully the democratic party as well. Maybe the good from both parties will splinter from the rotting carcasses that they have become and become real political powers, with principles and the good of the people as main concerns, not to be reelected.
  2. 27 Feb '17 15:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhB5eJPEUpM

    This is the silver lining of trump's presidency:
    People are awake. People are protesting. People know who cabinet appointees are and what they stand for. Can you name any Obama cabinet member without googling? Of course not, because none were as incompetent as Betsy DeVos or Ben Carson, none were too racist to ...[text shortened]... itical powers, with principles and the good of the people as main concerns, not to be reelected.
    My question to you is, have you awakened to the reason Trump was elected?

    Have you awakened to the fact that many Americans are upset that they were lied to regarding their health care? Are you aware that many are paying much higher premiums and have lost the health care they originally had when they were told differently by Obama?

    Are you aware of the mass exodus of jobs that continue to leave America? in fact, where is the press reporting all of this? What other politician is talking about this other than Trump?

    Are you aware of the federal immigration laws that call for illegals to be apprehended and deported? Should these continued to be ignored? Should law makers be more concerned with creating sanctuary cities for them more than those in California are concerned about taking care of their dams or those in Detroit with their drinking water?

    Are you aware that debt has risen more under Obama than all other Presidents combined that came before him? Do you care? No?

    I didn't think so.

    No, you are not awake you continue to be nothing more than a useful tool for George Soros.
  3. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    27 Feb '17 15:27
    Originally posted by whodey
    My question to you is, have you awakened to the reason Trump was elected?

    Have you awakened to the fact that many Americans are upset that they were lied to regarding their health care? Are you aware that many are paying much higher premiums and have lost the health care they originally had when they were told differently by Obama?

    Are you aware of the ...[text shortened]...

    No, you are not awake you continue to be nothing more than a useful tool for George Soros.
    Didn't I just hear somewhere that most Americans want to keep the affordable care act, but get rid of Obamacare?

    Pretty much sums up my reasons for using the lot of you as collatoral damage for a better world.
  4. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    27 Feb '17 15:33
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Pretty much sums up my reasons for using the lot of you as collatoral damage for a better world.
    How exactly does that play out in your fantasies Shav? A nuclear war that takes out the US?
  5. 27 Feb '17 15:40
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhB5eJPEUpM

    This is the silver lining of trump's presidency:
    People are awake. People are protesting. People know who cabinet appointees are and what they stand for. Can you name any Obama cabinet member without googling? Of course not, because none were as incompetent as Betsy DeVos or Ben Carson, none were too racist to ...[text shortened]... itical powers, with principles and the good of the people as main concerns, not to be reelected.
    Tsk tsk, overestimating our fellow voter again, are we? When did Nixon resign? When did Reagan get elected?
  6. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    27 Feb '17 19:50
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Didn't I just hear somewhere that most Americans want to keep the affordable care act, but get rid of Obamacare?

    Pretty much sums up my reasons for using the lot of you as collatoral damage for a better world.
    I have the distinct impression you don't have any idea what a "better world" would look like.
  7. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    27 Feb '17 19:59
    Originally posted by whodey
    My question to you is, have you awakened to the reason Trump was elected?

    Have you awakened to the fact that many Americans are upset that they were lied to regarding their health care? Are you aware that many are paying much higher premiums and have lost the health care they originally had when they were told differently by Obama?

    Are you aware of the ...[text shortened]...

    No, you are not awake you continue to be nothing more than a useful tool for George Soros.
    Since virtually everything presented here is false (the US economy created 11 million more jobs during Obama's two terms of office, 20 million more people got health insurance and on and on) what whodey is actually saying is that Trump's victory was due in large part to a significant portion of the American electoral being misinformed and/or believing obvious lies. This is no doubt true and a remedy would seem to be to better inform them but there seems to be difficulties in doing so because of our evolutionary makeup (those who don't believe in evolution can stop reading now). We seem to strongly resist changing our minds based on "mere" reason as this article from the New Yorker persuasively argues:

    Humans’ biggest advantage over other species is our ability to coöperate. Coöperation is difficult to establish and almost as difficult to sustain. For any individual, freeloading is always the best course of action. Reason developed not to enable us to solve abstract, logical problems or even to help us draw conclusions from unfamiliar data; rather, it developed to resolve the problems posed by living in collaborative groups.

    “Reason is an adaptation to the hypersocial niche humans have evolved for themselves,” Mercier and Sperber write. Habits of mind that seem weird or goofy or just plain dumb from an “intellectualist” point of view prove shrewd when seen from a social “interactionist” perspective.

    Consider what’s become known as “confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts them. Of the many forms of faulty thinking that have been identified, confirmation bias is among the best catalogued; it’s the subject of entire textbooks’ worth of experiments. One of the most famous of these was conducted, again, at Stanford. For this experiment, researchers rounded up a group of students who had opposing opinions about capital punishment. Half the students were in favor of it and thought that it deterred crime; the other half were against it and thought that it had no effect on crime.

    The students were asked to respond to two studies. One provided data in support of the deterrence argument, and the other provided data that called it into question. Both studies—you guessed it—were made up, and had been designed to present what were, objectively speaking, equally compelling statistics. The students who had originally supported capital punishment rated the pro-deterrence data highly credible and the anti-deterrence data unconvincing; the students who’d originally opposed capital punishment did the reverse. At the end of the experiment, the students were asked once again about their views. Those who’d started out pro-capital punishment were now even more in favor of it; those who’d opposed it were even more hostile.

    If reason is designed to generate sound judgments, then it’s hard to conceive of a more serious design flaw than confirmation bias. Imagine, Mercier and Sperber suggest, a mouse that thinks the way we do. Such a mouse, “bent on confirming its belief that there are no cats around,” would soon be dinner. To the extent that confirmation bias leads people to dismiss evidence of new or underappreciated threats—the human equivalent of the cat around the corner—it’s a trait that should have been selected against. The fact that both we and it survive, Mercier and Sperber argue, proves that it must have some adaptive function, and that function, they maintain, is related to our “hypersociability.”

    Mercier and Sperber prefer the term “myside bias.” Humans, they point out, aren’t randomly credulous. Presented with someone else’s argument, we’re quite adept at spotting the weaknesses. Almost invariably, the positions we’re blind about are our own.

    A recent experiment performed by Mercier and some European colleagues neatly demonstrates this asymmetry. Participants were asked to answer a series of simple reasoning problems. They were then asked to explain their responses, and were given a chance to modify them if they identified mistakes. The majority were satisfied with their original choices; fewer than fifteen per cent changed their minds in step two.

    In step three, participants were shown one of the same problems, along with their answer and the answer of another participant, who’d come to a different conclusion. Once again, they were given the chance to change their responses. But a trick had been played: the answers presented to them as someone else’s were actually their own, and vice versa. About half the participants realized what was going on. Among the other half, suddenly people became a lot more critical. Nearly sixty per cent now rejected the responses that they’d earlier been satisfied with.

    This lopsidedness, according to Mercier and Sperber, reflects the task that reason evolved to perform, which is to prevent us from getting screwed by the other members of our group. Living in small bands of hunter-gatherers, our ancestors were primarily concerned with their social standing, and with making sure that they weren’t the ones risking their lives on the hunt while others loafed around in the cave. There was little advantage in reasoning clearly, while much was to be gained from winning arguments.

    Among the many, many issues our forebears didn’t worry about were the deterrent effects of capital punishment and the ideal attributes of a firefighter. Nor did they have to contend with fabricated studies, or fake news, or Twitter. It’s no wonder, then, that today reason often seems to fail us. As Mercier and Sperber write, “This is one of many cases in which the environment changed too quickly for natural selection to catch up.”

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    27 Feb '17 20:12
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    There was little advantage in reasoning clearly, while much was to be gained from winning arguments.
    I was bored AF reading your post until I saw the quoted sentence.

    That sentence is profound.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    27 Feb '17 20:18 / 2 edits
    Since a primary task of education is to improve our reasoning skills, it is somewhat unsurprising that given the scientific evidence presented in the New Yorker article, that the best predictor of how people voted in 2016 was educational achievement level.http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/

    So putting two and two together as a generalization:

    Trump supporters believed a lot of things that weren't true

    While all of us are somewhat resistant to changing our minds based on "mere" facts, they being less educated, are more prone to receiving information from poor sources and less likely to have honed reasoning skills and thus able and/or willing to correct their misimpressions.

    That seems to be a continuing phenomenon.
  10. 27 Feb '17 22:23
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Since virtually everything presented here is false (the US economy created 11 million more jobs during Obama's two terms of office, 20 million more people got health insurance and on and on) what whodey is actually saying is that Trump's victory was due in large part to a significant portion of the American electoral being misinformed and/or believing ob ...[text shortened]... on to catch up.”

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds
    I'm being lectured about reason by someone who thinks that Hillary did not lie about her e-mails?

    Speaking of which, had the DNC not been as corrupt as they were and presented the worst possible candidate they could obtain, perhaps they would have won.
  11. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    27 Feb '17 22:33
    Originally posted by whodey
    I'm being lectured about reason by someone who thinks that Hillary did not lie about her e-mails?

    Speaking of which, had the DNC not been as corrupt as they were and presented the worst possible candidate they could obtain, perhaps they would have won.
    Responding to such tripe is useless.
  12. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    27 Feb '17 23:03
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Since a primary task of education is to improve our reasoning skills, it is somewhat unsurprising that given the scientific evidence presented in the New Yorker article, that the best predictor of how people voted in 2016 was educational achievement level.http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/

    So p ...[text shortened]... ble and/or willing to correct their misimpressions.

    That seems to be a continuing phenomenon.
    Clinton supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    Sanders supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    Obama/Soetoro supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    (repeat many, many, many times...)
  13. 27 Feb '17 23:12
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Clinton supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    Sanders supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    Obama/Soetoro supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    (repeat many, many, many times...)
    Marauder only believe things that are true.

    If we would only listen.
  14. Subscriber FreakyKBH
    Acquired Taste...
    28 Feb '17 01:37
    Originally posted by whodey
    Marauder only believe things that are true.

    If we would only listen.
    We all have this thing for never being wrong, for some reason.
    I'm one of the guilty, too.
  15. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    28 Feb '17 02:03
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Clinton supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    Sanders supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    Obama/Soetoro supporters believed a lot of things that aren't true

    (repeat many, many, many times...)
    Said the guy who believes the earth is flat.