Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35902
    17 Aug '18 22:361 edit
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    Originally posted by @whodey
    America was never great?

    It was great and then went immediately into decline right after we (the English) arrived. Then your attempt at independence made things worse ‘cos you are bunch of clueless introspective dicks made up of all the worst DNA left over from us lot.

    Good luck though.
    Do tell us all, with your obviously unbiased opinion, how you REALLY feel. No sugar-coating this time.
  2. Stargazing
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    89272
    18 Aug '18 06:16
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Do tell us all, with your obviously unbiased opinion, how you REALLY feel. No sugar-coating this time.
    Just needling whodey.

    My underlying point being that America was never great but it was ok before white Europeans arrived and stole it from the natives.
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45858
    18 Aug '18 10:54
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    Just needling whodey.

    My underlying point being that America was never great but it was ok before white Europeans arrived and stole it from the natives.
    All property is theft.
  4. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10120
    18 Aug '18 12:47
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    You've become just another tool. No one on the right cares about you, whodey, they just want your vote and so will tell you the biggest lie they think you'll swallow.
    Sure, and Hillary and Maxine Waters do care about me?

    Thanks for that.
  5. Germany
    Joined
    27 Oct '08
    Moves
    3118
    18 Aug '18 12:56
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Sure, and Hillary and Maxine Waters do care about me?

    Thanks for that.
    Hillary Clinton worked pro bono as a lawyer and runs a well-respected charity. I am sure she cares more about you than anyone you've ever voted for.
  6. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10120
    18 Aug '18 13:017 edits
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Do tell us all, with your obviously unbiased opinion, how you REALLY feel. No sugar-coating this time.
    America will always be remembered for the Constitution and the great intellects that wrote it. It was a document that recognized man's desire for freedom, coupled with their darker desire to enslave others, hoping that the later could be thwarted through checks and balances of government.

    And so they struggled with these two inclinations, but fell short not freeing the slaves they already had. Men like Cuomo would condemn them for this, but what he fails to recognize is that the Constitution is why slavery in the US became such a dividing issue. It is why brother fought brother in the bloodiest war in US history. No outside country needed to tell us otherwise, in fact, none did. No, we knew what we had to do and it all derived from those Founding Fathers and the documents that stated that men have innate rights under their Creator that no man gave, and so no man should be able to take them away.

    I consider Ben Franklins speech regarding the Constitution the greatest I have ever read.

    Mr. President

    I confess that there are several parts of this constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them: For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others. Most men indeed as well as most sects in Religion, think themselves in possession of all truth, and that wherever others differ from them it is so far error. Steele a Protestant in a Dedication tells the Pope, that the only difference between our Churches in their opinions of the certainty of their doctrines is, the Church of Rome is infallible and the Church of England is never in the wrong. But though many private persons think almost as highly of their own infallibility as of that of their sect, few express it so naturally as a certain french lady, who in a dispute with her sister, said "I don't know how it happens, Sister but I meet with no body but myself, that's always in the right — Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison."

    In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best. The opinions I have had of its errors, I sacrifice to the public good. I have never whispered a syllable of them abroad. Within these walls they were born, and here they shall die. If every one of us in returning to our Constituents were to report the objections he has had to it, and endeavor to gain partizans in support of them, we might prevent its being generally received, and thereby lose all the salutary effects & great advantages resulting naturally in our favor among foreign Nations as well as among ourselves, from our real or apparent unanimity. Much of the strength & efficiency of any Government in procuring and securing happiness to the people, depends, on opinion, on the general opinion of the goodness of the Government, as well as of the wisdom and integrity of its Governors. I hope therefore that for our own sakes as a part of the people, and for the sake of posterity, we shall act heartily and unanimously in recommending this Constitution (if approved by Congress & confirmed by the Conventions) wherever our influence may extend, and turn our future thoughts & endeavors to the means of having it well administred.

    On the whole, Sir, I can not help expressing a wish that every member of the Convention who may still have objections to it, would with me, on this occasion doubt a little of his own infallibility, and to make manifest our unanimity, put his name to this instrument.


    In this speech, we see that Franklin understood the problem. How do you give freedom to men and prevent them from abusing others? Franklin instinctively knew that the only way to accomplish this was for such free men to be of good moral fiber. If man cannot govern his own actions to treat people well, then the state would be forced to do it for them, thus ending their freedom.

    But how to do this? Franklin understood that faith in God was crucial for the morality of a society, but he also recognized that state run churches in Europe America had fled from were oppressive and manipulative. Franklin also recognized that he did not have all the answers and felt compelled to sign a document that he knew was flawed. Ben Franklin appreciated that American society was largely a moral one, with most practicing their faith in some form or fashion, so he had hope that the Constitution may prevail for a time, but he also understood how society drifts away morally because deep down man is not good, he is flawed and at some point society would become so amoral that the Constitution would fall apart, in favor of a despotic government needed to control them. Looking at society today you would think him a prophet, but he just understood the human condition, something men like Cuomo do not.

    No, men like Cuomo think that all society needs is more government involvement in our lives, so that every person in the country becomes politicized. God need not enter the picture, in fact, God should be banned from public discourse least some be offended. Man can assume the role of God and care for everyone from cradle to coffin.

    So the former experiment has ended, as the newer Cuomo like experiment has begun. It is the experiment that says, deep down man is good, therefore, we will find the most brilliant minds to run society with virtually unlimited power.. Collectivism is the key to maintaining a civil society, and not person morality. Through the collective power of the state men can be steered to think and behave as they ought. After all, man is good deep down so it should come naturally.

    Men like Franklin knew better, which is why Federalism was created to decentralize power. Many felt that the Constitution allowed for a government that would become too centralized and corrupt and unjust. Shrug, Men like Fraklin were right.
  7. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    57108
    18 Aug '18 18:19
    Originally posted by @whodey
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/nyregion/cuomo-maga-trump-.html

    Alas, Governor Cuomo of California had his Hillary deplorable moment when he said that America was never really all that great.

    Fortunately for him, though, they vote straight "D" in New York so it really matters little what he says or does, they will vote for him again.

    Also, I think a great many on the Left think the way he does.

    Who here does?
    Me.

    When the hell was the US ever great?
  8. Joined
    04 Feb '05
    Moves
    29132
    18 Aug '18 18:31
    Americans have this notion that America is perfect, that is the best thing since sliced bread. That's what they think when talking about it's greatness, forgetting the fact that no country is without skeletons in their closet.

    It's past isn't great:
    America had slavery. America had witch burnings. America committed genocide. America destabilized foreign countries. America invaded other countries. America interred its citizens in japanese internment camps. America napalmed villaged in Vietnam. America invaded Iraq based on a monumental lie.

    It's present isn't great:
    America has more incarcerated citizens than China. America's infrastructure is failing. America's healthcare is among the worst among first world countries. America does nothing to stop its citizens from being shot in schools, in churches, in malls. America still has discrimination and bigotry, and a lot of it. America spends billions on wars and tax cuts for the rich and a pittance on education and healthcare. America now wages war on poor people instead on poverty.


    America is not great. It could be.
  9. Stargazing
    Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    89272
    18 Aug '18 19:121 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    All property is theft.
    Yeah, right on dude... 🙄
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    Just another day
    tinyurl.com/y3ngvdp2
    Joined
    23 Aug '04
    Moves
    24791
    20 Aug '18 22:52
    Originally posted by @whodey
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/15/nyregion/cuomo-maga-trump-.html

    Alas, Governor Cuomo of California had his Hillary deplorable moment when he said that America was never really all that great.

    Fortunately for him, though, they vote straight "D" in New York so it really matters little what he says or does, they will vote for him again.

    Also, I think a great many on the Left think the way he does.

    Who here does?
    Cuomo is a Sicilian-American born in New York who governs New York. What does this have to do with CA?!

    Are you subconsciously scared of us or something?
  11. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    57108
    22 Aug '18 22:53
    America has great music: Springsteen, Waits, Lou Reed.

    America has great films: Pulp fiction, the big Lebowski, Star Wars.

    America has the world’s greatest living scribe: Stephen King.

    But as for politics, education, health, rationality and foreign affairs... it’s a bloody disgrace.

    And 90%+ of the people (or people connected with) from my first three points agree with me.
Back to Top