Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 10:071 edit
    This is a thing. I keep hearing evangelical christians (almost always voting republican, almost always conservative) going on and on about this.
    Let's analyze it for a bit.

    According to them, abortion (usually a woman, many times a teenager, not in a family or struggling to support her current one or worst of all, a rape victim) is murder. Having an abortion kills children. So they oppose the legalization of abortion or any legislation that hinders it.
    They also oppose any laws that would provide healthcare for young babies. You have an abysmal infant mortality rate. Let those dirt poor mothers try to care for a newborn. Let her deal with all the infancy illnesses with no health insurance. Killing a "child - bad. Letting a child die - good.

    They oppose gays getting married and adopting. The family values groups are opposing 2 adults starting a family. In their eyes, it's better for a child to be passed around foster families than to be adopted by 2 decent adults vowing to provide a stable home.

    America is the only country, along with Papua New Guinea that doesn't guarantee ANY maternity (paternity) leave.
  2. Standard membershavixmir
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    15 Mar '17 11:32
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    This is a thing. I keep hearing evangelical christians (almost always voting republican, almost always conservative) going on and on about this.
    Let's analyze it for a bit.

    According to them, abortion (usually a woman, many times a teenager, not in a family or struggling to support her current one or worst of all, a rape victim) is murder. Having an ab ...[text shortened]... y country, along with Papua New Guinea that doesn't guarantee ANY maternity (paternity) leave.
    American family values only really means that they think it's acceptable that 1 in 5 women are abused in the home.
  3. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 13:39
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    American family values only really means that they think it's acceptable that 1 in 5 women are abused in the home.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4019993/

    Two percent of women in the US suffer from intimate partner violence annually, with poor and minority women disproportionately affected.
  4. Unknown Territories
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    15 Mar '17 13:52
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    This is a thing. I keep hearing evangelical christians (almost always voting republican, almost always conservative) going on and on about this.
    Let's analyze it for a bit.

    According to them, abortion (usually a woman, many times a teenager, not in a family or struggling to support her current one or worst of all, a rape victim) is murder. Having an ab ...[text shortened]... y country, along with Papua New Guinea that doesn't guarantee ANY maternity (paternity) leave.
    If I may...

    I believe the disconnect for you (and others) lies in the reconciliation of priorities.
    In your mind, the every day values are the only arbiter of the Christian life, while to the thinking Christian there is importance of priority which simply must come first before all others.

    To be sure, we could make ANY nation a Christian nation, i.e., make any group of people behave according to certain so-called Christian values: feeding the poor, housing the homeless, tending to the sick, and etc..
    Enforced compassion, in other words.

    However, for the thinking Christian, without the sanctity of the individual will completely intact, ALL action otherwise is pointless.

    Sounds harsh, I concede.
    But the reality is, God isn't impressed with good deeds--- even those He mandated for man to follow.
    He has been and will always be after the heart of man.

    When the government steps in and forces sobriety, humility and help, it's nothing more than lipstick on a pig: pretty colors but otherwise still revolting.

    When, out of the overflow of the heart, the hands voluntarily help, that is Christianity in action.
  5. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 14:04
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If I may...

    I believe the disconnect for you (and others) lies in the reconciliation of priorities.
    In your mind, the every day values are the only arbiter of the Christian life, while to the thinking Christian there is importance of priority which simply must come first before all others.

    To be sure, we could make ANY nation a Christian nation, i.e ...[text shortened]... n, out of the overflow of the heart, the hands voluntarily help, that is Christianity in action.
    "To be sure, we could make ANY nation a Christian nation, i.e., make any group of people behave according to certain so-called Christian values: feeding the poor, housing the homeless, tending to the sick, and etc..
    Enforced compassion, in other words."
    the priority however is to define what marriage is, right

    "But the reality is, God isn't impressed with good deeds--- even those He mandated for man to follow.
    He has been and will always be after the heart of man."
    in other words, it's the thought that counts. you may kick millions off health insurance and leave them to die, but if you genuinely think you're doing the right think, it's ok.


    "When the government steps in and forces sobriety, humility and help, it's nothing more than lipstick on a pig: pretty colors but otherwise still revolting. "
    yep. children not living in poverty, disabled, elderly getting healthcare, mothers getting paid maternity leave. all revolting.

    "When, out of the overflow of the heart, the hands voluntarily help, that is Christianity in action."
    yes, it's much better and sufficient for some christians to donate a cake and some clothes to some poor family. when the government institutes a nationwide program to, for example, give healthcare to all, that's anti christian. Christians opposing such a program, that is christianity in action.
  6. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 14:15
    imagine a "Pro-Shoes" group. From their name, it gives you the impression that they want to ensure everyone has shoes. What a noble goal. Nothing is worse than walking barefoot in a city, stepping in all kinds of filth.

    Then you realize that they have no such intention. Their sole purpose is to define what a shoe is and to put it into constitution. To make sure everyone realizes what color the shoelaces have to be and from that to understand that velcro sneakers are an abomination. That you shouldn't be allowed to wear sandals, no matter how much more you like them over shoes.

    They don't want a program to subsidize shoe purchasing for poor people. They don't want regulations to ensure shoes don't rip after a week of wearing. They just want to tell people what shoes to wear.

    They will however assure you they don't hate you for owning sandals. They just don't want to see you wear them despite that fact not affecting them in the least.
  7. Standard membervivify
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    15 Mar '17 14:322 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    This is a thing. I keep hearing evangelical christians (almost always voting republican, almost always conservative) going on and on about this.
    Let's analyze it for a bit.

    According to them, abortion (usually a woman, many times a teenager, not in a family or struggling to support her current one or worst of all, a rape victim) is murder. Having an ab ...[text shortened]... y country, along with Papua New Guinea that doesn't guarantee ANY maternity (paternity) leave.
    "Family values" is just a code word for "Christian values". Hypocritically, conservatives don't act Christian when they oppose welfare, or portray the poor as worthless moochers. Jesus said "let him who has two coats give to him who has none." Jesus would offend conservatives today, especially capitalists ("You cannot serve both God and Money", or "the love of money is the root of all evil).

    I wonder how many threads Whodey would make blasting Jesus for his socialist views.
  8. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 14:39
    Originally posted by vivify
    "Family values" is just a code word for "Christian values". Hypocritically, conservatives don't act Christian when they oppose welfare, or portray the poor as worthless moochers. Jesus said "let him who has two coats give to him who has none." Jesus would offend conservatives today, especially capitalists ("You cannot serve both God and Money", or "the lov ...[text shortened]... ll evil).

    I wonder how many threads Whodey would make blasting Jesus for his socialist views.
    John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”


    That was from Luke 3 and was John the Baptist not Jesus.


    On any case, where did John say that the government should be doing this?

    Or are you simply a liar?
  9. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 14:441 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    "Family values" is just a code word for "Christian values". Hypocritically, conservatives don't act Christian when they oppose welfare, or portray the poor as worthless moochers. Jesus said "let him who has two coats give to him who has none." Jesus would offend conservatives today, especially capitalists ("You cannot serve both God and Money", or "the lov ...[text shortened]... ll evil).

    I wonder how many threads Whodey would make blasting Jesus for his socialist views.
    Indeed. Christ was an outspoken advocate of abortion on demand and money being forcibly taken from people to give to the poor.

    It is also my understanding that he personally oversaw a few gay marriages and gave many a sermon on global warming.

    Well done Bible scholars
  10. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 14:451 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    This is a thing. I keep hearing evangelical christians (almost always voting republican, almost always conservative) going on and on about this.
    Let's analyze it for a bit.

    According to them, abortion (usually a woman, many times a teenager, not in a family or struggling to support her current one or worst of all, a rape victim) is murder. Having an ab ...[text shortened]... y country, along with Papua New Guinea that doesn't guarantee ANY maternity (paternity) leave.
    I think you are on to something here "Z". Killing of the unwanted and poor would solve a lot of social ills.

    I hear that using discarded aborted fetus' can also be used to heat buildings.
  11. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 14:501 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”


    That was from Luke 3 and was John the Baptist not Jesus.


    On any case, where did John say that the government should be doing this?

    Or are you simply a liar?
    "On any case, where did John say that the government should be doing this?"
    Are YOU doing this? are YOU giving 50% of what you have away?
    if not, there's you freakin answer on why the government should do it. And it doesn't even do 50%. It does it so the poor pay little to no taxes and the rich pay more. (still not 50% )
  12. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 15:00
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "On any case, where did John say that the government should be doing this?"
    Are YOU doing this? are YOU giving 50% of what you have away?
    if not, there's you freakin answer on why the government should do it. And it doesn't even do 50%. It does it so the poor pay little to no taxes and the rich pay more. (still not 50% )
    First admit the Bible does not teach that governments should have social programs.
  13. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 15:15
    Originally posted by Eladar
    First admit the Bible does not teach that governments should have social programs.
    "First admit the Bible does not teach that governments should have social programs"

    Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial taxb to Caesar or not? 15Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”
    But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”
    “Caesar’s,” they replied.
    17Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”


    I am going to ignore for a moment you being stupid and saying that Jesus would be against "charity" if the government does it.
    I am going to ignore for a moment that Jesus didn't tell you to give away half your crap for YOUR sake, it was for the people who had none. the charity is not the end goal, people having nothing getting something is.

    Turns out, Jesus advocated paying taxes. To roman emperors no less, tyrannical dictators that used most of the money to pay for wars, their lavish lifestyles and occasionally some infrastructure for the empire.
    Are you trying to say that he would have been against paying taxes to a benevolent leader that did more for the people, less for wars. That he would have been against paying taxes to a government elected by the people and answering to the people?

    Please admit that you're actually saying that, there might be people here who are not 100% convinced you are stupid.
  14. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 15:291 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "First admit the Bible does not teach that governments should have social programs"

    Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God ...[text shortened]... u're actually saying that, there might be people here who are not 100% convinced you are stupid.
    I think there is a far more radical reading: have nothing to do with Roman coins. Use barter or our local coinage for trade between us. If you have any Roman coins, return them to the occupiers. Any of us who accept and trade in Roman coins is a traitor. Recall what happened to the money lenders in the temple?
  15. Joined
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    15 Mar '17 15:37
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "First admit the Bible does not teach that governments should have social programs"

    Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words. 14They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God ...[text shortened]... u're actually saying that, there might be people here who are not 100% convinced you are stupid.
    I wonder what kind of sicial programs the Romans had for Jews.

    You are too brainwashed to be reasined with.
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