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  1. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    06 Aug '09 01:53
    ...so said Justice Scalia.

    But does it mean the U.S.'s "beacon" shines less brightly than many Americans continue to think it does?

    Morality and the conception of international law, shaped by a TV series?
  2. 06 Aug '09 02:23
    Originally posted by FMF
    ...so said Justice Scalia.

    But does it mean the U.S.'s "beacon" shines less brightly than many Americans continue to think it does?

    Morality and the conception of international law, shaped by a TV series?
    who is jack bauer?
  3. 06 Aug '09 04:27
    it's a fictional show europeans like to watch about US spies.
  4. 06 Aug '09 16:43
    Originally posted by FMF
    ...
    Morality and the conception of international law, shaped by a TV series?
    the US Supreme Court is totally AWESOME.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyph_DZa_GQ
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Aug '09 17:15
    Originally posted by FMF
    ...so said Justice Scalia.

    But does it mean the U.S.'s "beacon" shines less brightly than many Americans continue to think it does?

    Morality and the conception of international law, shaped by a TV series?
    Do you have a link for that? I'd like to see the context in which he said that.
  6. 06 Aug '09 17:21
    Originally posted by sh76
    Do you have a link for that? I'd like to see the context in which he said that.
    It was the speech he gave where he quoted Judge Dredd as a precident, saying "I Am The Law".
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Aug '09 17:24
    Originally posted by Sam The Sham
    It was the speech he gave where he quoted Judge Dredd as a precident, saying "I Am The Law".
    Do you have a link to the speech?
  8. 06 Aug '09 17:25
    Originally posted by sh76
    Do you have a link to the speech?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyph_DZa_GQ
  9. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    06 Aug '09 17:28
    Originally posted by sh76
    Do you have a link for that? I'd like to see the context in which he said that.
    Just heard it on the audio version of last week's Economist in an article about how torture has been counter productive because it's thrown "sand into the wheels of justice" I will look it up. I have the pdf of the mag here somewhere or I can go online
  10. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Aug '09 17:29 / 2 edits
    Justice Scalia responded with a defense of Agent Bauer, arguing that law enforcement officials deserve latitude in times of great crisis. “Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles . . . . He saved hundreds of thousands of lives,” Judge Scalia reportedly said. “Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?” He then posed a series of questions to his fellow judges: “Say that criminal law is against him? ‘You have the right to a jury trial?’ Is any jury going to convict Jack Bauer?”

    “I don’t think so,” Scalia reportedly answered himself. “So the question is really whether we believe in these absolutes. And ought we believe in these absolutes.”


    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/06/20/justice-scalia-hearts-jack-bauer/

    Scalia's point was that no rule is absolute and exigent circumstances sometimes require exceptions to the normal rules of law enforcement.

    For my own part, I:

    - Would not convict Jack Bauer based on anything I've seen him do on 24 (though I only saw the first 5 seasons- I haven't watched since then)

    - Would give Jack Bauer the Congressional Medal of Honor were it not for the fact that he doesn't exist

    - Agree with Justice Scalia

    - Don't give a hoot about our beacon any more than the Swedes or Finns care about their beacons.
  11. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    06 Aug '09 17:37
    Originally posted by sh76
    Do you have a link for that? I'd like to see the context in which he said that.
    This is all I've got.
    JACK BAUER famously does whatever it takes to save America from disaster, be that disaster nuclear, biological or computer attack. Week after week, the hero of “24” acts brutally, and endures brutality, for the greater good. It is a sign of the times that this year’s season opened with Bauer being hauled before a congressional committee to face the charge of committing torture. He was unrepentant.

    This television character, who first appeared in 2001, has been oddly at the heart of the arguments over the conduct of America’s “war on terrorism”. Critics in the American army have complained that he encourages young soldiers to abuse prisoners. Supporters, such as Antonin Scalia, a Supreme Court justice, praised him for the episode in which he saved Los Angeles from nuclear attack, even though it meant staging the mock execution of a family to get a Middle Eastern villain to talk. “Is any jury going to convict Jack Bauer? I don’t think so,” said the judge.

    In contrast with Europeans, who strongly reject the use of torture, the American public is pretty evenly divided about its use to extract information from terrorists


    http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14121716
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Aug '09 17:44
    Originally posted by FMF
    This is all I've got.
    JACK BAUER famously does whatever it takes to save America from disaster, be that disaster nuclear, biological or computer attack. Week after week, the hero of “24” acts brutally, and endures brutality, for the greater good. It is a sign of the times that this year’s season opened with Bauer being hauled before a congressional commi ...[text shortened]... sts


    http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14121716
    The mock execution of Sayed Ali's son, one of the great TV scenes I've ever seen, were certainly justified.

    He FAKED killing one of them (in reality, they were not hurt at all), and thereby extracted information that helped prevent a nuclear bomb from destroying Los Angeles.

    If there's anyone out there who think this wasn't justified, I'd love to hear your reasons why.
  13. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    06 Aug '09 17:50
    Originally posted by sh76
    If there's anyone out there who think this wasn't justified, I'd love to hear your reasons why.
    Are you not a little worried about basing even any little bit of your attitude towards the justifications for torture on scenarios from a TV series?
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    06 Aug '09 17:54
    Originally posted by sh76
    The mock execution of Sayed Ali's son, one of the great TV scenes I've ever seen, were certainly justified. He FAKED killing one of them (in reality, they were not hurt at all), and thereby extracted information that helped prevent a nuclear bomb from destroying Los Angeles.
    Let's say the TV script had had Sayed Ali give his torturers a bum steer as is often the way with torture victims, and Jack and troupe had set off for San Fransisco, and Los Angeles was destroyed anyway. Would you now be ambivalent or perhaps against torture. You're pulling my leg. You must be.
  15. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    06 Aug '09 18:00
    Originally posted by FMF
    Let's say the TV script had had Sayed Ali give his torturers a bum steer as is often the way with torture victims, and Jack and troupe had set off for San Fransisco, and Los Angeles was destroyed anyway. Would you now be ambivalent or perhaps against torture. You're pulling my leg. You must be.
    The ticking time bomb thing is a standing joke among torturers. It's strictly the domain of retail politicians and populations of TV drongos, glued to clothes horses playing cops and robbers and evil arabs, and - as they get potato chip oil all over the remote controls - who cannot always differentiate between reality shows and what reality shows.

    The U.S. torture policy has been a massive error. Read that article.