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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    11 Jun '10 03:54 / 1 edit
    One plan is to sail to Turkey to deliver desperately needed aid to the Kurds who are fighting to establish an independent state of Kurdistan on land occupied by Turkey. The Israelis also would like to help Christian Armenians whose ancient enemy, Turkey once again, is also blockading their area via Azerbaijan. The Israeli group would also like to peacefully greet any future fascist flotillas sailing to well equipped, well supplied Gaza at sea, explain their concerns and redirect them to areas which desperately need the aid. Israel regularly allows food and medicine into Gaza but the freely elected and brutally corrupt Hamas government distributes it, usually denying supplies to its many enemies.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177789
  2. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    11 Jun '10 09:14
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    One plan is to sail to Turkey to deliver desperately needed aid to the Kurds who are fighting to establish an independent state of Kurdistan on land occupied by Turkey. The Israelis also would like to help Christian Armenians whose ancient enemy, Turkey once again, is also blockading their area via Azerbaijan. The Israeli group would also like to peac ...[text shortened]... ally denying supplies to its many enemies.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177789
    I applaud both Turkey and Israel for criticizing one another's intolerable actions.

    However, it is unacceptable for Israel to think that Turkey's intolerable actions constitute a pleasant excuse for their own.
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    11 Jun '10 22:12
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    I applaud both Turkey and Israel for criticizing one another's intolerable actions.

    However, it is unacceptable for Israel to think that Turkey's intolerable actions constitute a pleasant excuse for their own.
    Do you find it acceptable that the World goes bananas on one and completely ignores the other?
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    11 Jun '10 22:15
    Originally posted by sh76
    Do you find it acceptable that the World goes bananas on one and completely ignores the other?
    Well let's wait until Turks start killing these flotilla Israelis. It's not quite the same yet.
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    11 Jun '10 22:19
    Originally posted by sh76
    Do you find it acceptable that the World goes bananas on one and completely ignores the other?
    BROKEN RECORD ALERT!!

    Do you find it acceptable that Israel has been selling weapons to the Turks for the express purpose of being used against the Kurds?
  6. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    13 Jun '10 07:21
    Originally posted by sh76
    Do you find it acceptable that the World goes bananas on one and completely ignores the other?
    But there is a sovereign Armenian nation which although landlocked has several options for commerce with other nations. It's true the borders with Turkey and Azerbaijan are closed due to various disputes, but that leaves the Georgian and Iranian borders open for commerce.

    As for the Kurds (or even the Scots) sometimes a conquered ethnic group desires to go its own way. The World's response should then be based on "how bad is the discrimination against them where they are now?" Neither the Kurds nor the Scots approach the highly restricted camps the Palestinians live in. So there is less reason for the World to go bananas over them.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Jun '10 14:12 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Neither the Kurds nor the Scots approach the highly restricted camps the Palestinians live in. So there is less reason for the World to go bananas over them.
    When was the last time the Scots launched a suicide bombing campaign against the English? Ingress and egress between Israel and the Palestinian territories was much, much easier before the Intifadas. Before the terror campaigns, tens of thousands of Palestinians crossed into Israel every day with ease to work.

    The thing that caused the borders to be tightened is that Hamas and Co. took advantage of the porous borders to do things like blow up crowded buses and pizza parlors. Israel had no choice but to tighten the borders.
  8. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    13 Jun '10 14:38 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    When was the last time the Scots launched a suicide bombing campaign against the English? Ingress and egress between Israel and the Palestinian territories was much, much easier before the Intifadas. Before the terror campaigns, tens of thousands of Palestinians crossed into Israel every day with ease to work.

    The thing that caused the borders to be tightene ...[text shortened]... s like blow up crowded buses and pizza parlors. Israel had no choice but to tighten the borders.
    Who would give up a life of standing at a checkpoint twice a day in the hot sun for the privilege of going to a foreign nation to mop floors and clean toilets?

    Let's be clear: given how long the Israeli occupation has gone on, there have been Palestinians who have been born, lived, and died knowing no other bounty than the crumbs the Israelis were content to let fall from their table.

    What Israel has done is a monstrous affront to human dignity. There is no other fitting description. It is certainly as bad as apartheid -- and committed for a very similar reason: "you don't look like us."
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    13 Jun '10 14:40
    Originally posted by sh76
    When was the last time the Scots launched a suicide bombing campaign against the English? Ingress and egress between Israel and the Palestinian territories was much, much easier before the Intifadas. Before the terror campaigns, tens of thousands of Palestinians crossed into Israel every day with ease to work.

    The thing that caused the borders to be tightene ...[text shortened]... s like blow up crowded buses and pizza parlors. Israel had no choice but to tighten the borders.
    Israel never seems to have any choice but to commit crimes against humanity in your opinion.
  10. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    13 Jun '10 14:52
    Originally posted by sh76
    When was the last time the Scots launched a suicide bombing campaign against the English? Ingress and egress between Israel and the Palestinian territories was much, much easier before the Intifadas. Before the terror campaigns, tens of thousands of Palestinians crossed into Israel every day with ease to work.

    The thing that caused the borders to be tightene ...[text shortened]... s like blow up crowded buses and pizza parlors. Israel had no choice but to tighten the borders.
    It is so astonishing to hear an American voice unequivocal support for an apartheid-like regime. Suppose the Zulus had started a bombing campaign against Natal.

    - Would that have given the white South Africans the justification to continue apartheid forever?
    - Was it only a question of white South African "security" -- nothing else mattered except that?
    - Were the international sanctions that finally brought South African apartheid to an end wrong in your eyes?
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Jun '10 17:07
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Who would give up a life of standing at a checkpoint twice a day in the hot sun for the privilege of going to a foreign nation to mop floors and clean toilets?

    Let's be clear: given how long the Israeli occupation has gone on, there have been Palestinians who have been born, lived, and died knowing no other bounty than the crumbs the Israelis were co ...[text shortened]... ly as bad as apartheid -- and committed for a very similar reason: "you don't look like us."
    The "mop floors" and "clean toilets" line is an obvious strawman. The Palestinians were (and are) perfectly capable of going to university and getting an education and becoming, doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. In our day of online education, this is even more true.

    Let's be clear: given how long the Israeli occupation has gone on, there have been Palestinians who have been born, lived, and died knowing no other bounty than the crumbs the Israelis were content to let fall from their table.

    Then do what every other society in history has done and grow your own bread rather than relying on someone else's crumbs. Yes, in Gaza in the last 2 years it's been very difficult to do that because of the embargo. But the WB isn't embargoed and Gaza wasn't until a couple of years ago. Israel never stopped the Palestinians from building a society and economy of their own. The other Arab nations are more interested in maintaining a destitute Palestinian population as a rallying cry against Israel and as a distraction for their own population than in propping up their bretheren, which they are more than capable of doing (again, aside from gaza in that past 2 years).
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Jun '10 17:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    It is so astonishing to hear an American voice unequivocal support for an apartheid-like regime. Suppose the Zulus had started a bombing campaign against Natal.

    - Would that have given the white South Africans the justification to continue apartheid forever?
    - Was it only a question of white South African "security" -- nothing else mattered except t ...[text shortened]... rnational sanctions that finally brought South African apartheid to an end wrong in your eyes?
    Another strawman. Israel is not an apartheid-like regime.

    Of course this shouldn't go on forever. Rather than just condemning Israel like clockwork every few months, the governments of the US, Europe and that great bastion of justice and freedom for all, Turkey, should work towards a negotiated settlement that would produce a free and robust Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel.

    To turn your example around, did the Zulus ultimately gain their freedom through a bombing campaign?
  13. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    13 Jun '10 17:39 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    Another strawman. Israel is not an apartheid-like regime.

    Of course this shouldn't go on forever. Rather than just condemning Israel like clockwork every few months, the governments of the US, Europe and that great bastion of justice and freedom for all, Turkey, should work towards a negotiated settlement that would produce a free and robust Palestinian sta ...[text shortened]... rn your example around, did the Zulus ultimately gain their freedom through a bombing campaign?
    Absent armed resistance, the Zulus wouldn't have gained their freedom. As Nelson Mandela stated in 1990:

    "Our resort to the armed struggle in 1960 with the formation of the military wing of the ANC (Umkhonto we Sizwe) was a purely defensive action against the violence of apartheid. The factors which necessitated the armed struggle still exist today. We have no option but to continue. We express the hope that a climate conducive to a negotiated settlement would be created soon, so that there may no longer be the need for the armed struggle."

    http://y2u.co.uk/sub029_famous/F_Nelson_Mandela.htm

    Of course, the ANC was called a "terrorist" organization by the oppressors and their apologists.

    An economic embargo against Israel like the one the international community imposed on South Africa would be an excellent idea. I'm sure you would vehemently oppose it as anti-Semitism however.
  14. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    13 Jun '10 21:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    The "mop floors" and "clean toilets" line is an obvious strawman. The Palestinians were (and are) perfectly capable of going to university and getting an education and becoming, doctors, engineers, scientists, etc. In our day of online education, this is even more true.

    Let's be clear: given how long the Israeli occupation has gone on, there have been Pal hich they are more than capable of doing (again, aside from gaza in that past 2 years).
    It is not a strawman if it is true. Palestinian laborers literally risk death to cross the border to work for their oppressors:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5871ZV20090908

    "Sometimes I will get in once during the course of a week, and then I'll stay in Jerusalem for the week. And some weeks, I don't get in at all," said one worker.

    "Each time you do it, you're risking your life," Abu Omar said. "If one of those soldiers is a bad guy, he might shoot at you while you're going through the mountains. No one can do anything about it, that's it."

    ===

    And just because WB isn't embargoed doesn't mean they are allowed trade with any nation but Israel:

    WEST BANK AND GAZA
    Palestinian Trade: West Bank Routes

    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_other_organizations_reports_palestinian_trade.pdf

    "West Bank and Gaza (WBG) is a small, resource poor economy. Consequently, its growth depends on maintaining open trade with its neighbors. Trade flows are nearly 85% of GDP with the vast majority - probably around 90% - with Israel. However, because of the deteriorating security situation, the Government of Israel (GOI) has increasingly imposed restrictions and closures that impede trade. In addition, changes in the Israeli economy have reduced the market for traditional Palestinian products. Though the Israeli economy will remain WBG’s main trading partner for some time to come, future growth will depend upon Palestinian enterprises being able to reach beyond Israel and access new markets in the rest of the world."

    "To access the wider world market, Palestinian enterprises must first face the challenge of moving within the West Bank itself. The numerous Israeli road blocks, closed areas, restricted roads and growing settlements have cut the Palestinian communities into isolated cantons, which raise transportation costs and significantly limits the ability of Palestinian enterprises to achieve economies of scale."
  15. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    13 Jun '10 21:24
    Originally posted by sh76
    Another strawman. Israel is not an apartheid-like regime.

    Of course this shouldn't go on forever. Rather than just condemning Israel like clockwork every few months, the governments of the US, Europe and that great bastion of justice and freedom for all, Turkey, should work towards a negotiated settlement that would produce a free and robust Palestinian sta ...[text shortened]... rn your example around, did the Zulus ultimately gain their freedom through a bombing campaign?
    Of course Israel has apartheid ('separateness'. A segment of the population is kept in what would have been known in SA as 'Bantustans'. They people who live there have to have passes to get out, can't vote in regular elections, etc.

    Coincidentally, South African and Israel apartheid began about the same time, circa 1948.