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  1. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    04 Jul '11 11:38
    An interesting exchange developed in the DSK thread which lead to a number of left-wingers apparently agreeing that an "anti-rich bias" could be rational.

    The question is, since these are often the same folks urging us to "tax the rich more", what role does their prejudice against rich people play in these decisions? Do they really just want to raise revenue? Or is their objective to hurt people they dislike?

    Should those of us with no particular grudge against the rich now be suspicious of the "tax the rich" argument?
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    04 Jul '11 11:57
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    An interesting exchange developed in the DSK thread which lead to a number of left-wingers apparently agreeing that an "anti-rich bias" could be rational.

    The question is, since these are often the same folks urging us to "tax the rich more", what role does their prejudice against rich people play in these decisions? Do they really just want to raise ...[text shortened]... th no particular grudge against the rich now be suspicious of the "tax the rich" argument?
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    04 Jul '11 14:55
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    An interesting exchange developed in the DSK thread which lead to a number of left-wingers apparently agreeing that an "anti-rich bias" could be rational.

    The question is, since these are often the same folks urging us to "tax the rich more", what role does their prejudice against rich people play in these decisions? Do they really just want to raise ...[text shortened]... th no particular grudge against the rich now be suspicious of the "tax the rich" argument?
    I hope this is not a thread hijack, but remember that rational doesn't mean right.

    Most biases out there have some element of rationality about them.

    This is going to be really politically incorrect, but:

    - If I'm looking to hire a guy to work in my construction crew and I have a random black guy and a random white guy applying, it's slightly more likely that the random black guy has a drug problem that's going to interfere with his ability to do the job on a regular basis.

    - If I'm looking to do a complicated business transaction and I can do it with either a Jewish guy from New York or a good ol' boy from the Tennessee hills, it's slightly more likely that the Jewish guy from NY is going to be tougher on me over the course of the deal.

    - If I'm looking to hire a guy to work in a position in California that requires some math skills and I have a random Hispanic guy and a random Asian guy applying, it's slightly more likely that the Asian guy has a stronger mathematical background.

    etc.

    Now, it's morally (and legally) wrong to discriminate against people based on these prejudices.

    But are they irrational? Not really.

    Take Sam the Sham. He doesn't like black people because he says they ruined all of his favorite neighborhoods. They used to be nice, the blacks moved in and now they're run down and crime infested and properly values tanked.

    Is that a reason to dislike black people? Of course not. Is that a morally acceptable reason to judge unfavorably any individual? Of course not. But is it irrational? Well, is it?

    If you think that we should soak the rich because the rich built their fortunes on the backs of the less fortunate... well, I disagree; but it's not really irrational.
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    04 Jul '11 16:05
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    An interesting exchange developed in the DSK thread which lead to a number of left-wingers apparently agreeing that an "anti-rich bias" could be rational.

    The question is, since these are often the same folks urging us to "tax the rich more", what role does their prejudice against rich people play in these decisions? Do they really just want to raise ...[text shortened]... th no particular grudge against the rich now be suspicious of the "tax the rich" argument?
    If we wanted to "hurt" them, we'd be proposing the guillotine not an end to the favored treatment of capital gains, dividends and estates.
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    04 Jul '11 18:44
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    An interesting exchange developed in the DSK thread which lead to a number of left-wingers apparently agreeing that an "anti-rich bias" could be rational.

    The question is, since these are often the same folks urging us to "tax the rich more", what role does their prejudice against rich people play in these decisions? Do they really just want to raise ...[text shortened]... th no particular grudge against the rich now be suspicious of the "tax the rich" argument?
    The reason I dislike the rich is that they demand immense government support to enforce their wealth and refuse to pay taxes or hire the populace. The reason for taxation is not the bias.
  6. 04 Jul '11 18:48
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The reason I dislike the rich is that they demand immense government support to enforce their wealth and refuse to pay taxes or hire the populace. The reason for taxation is not the bias.
    if the rich are not hiring the populace who the heck is then ? barring govt. jobs ofcourse.
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    04 Jul '11 18:50 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    if the rich are not hiring the populace who the heck is then ? barring govt. jobs ofcourse.
    Umm...nobody. Recession, remember?

    In principle it's supposed to be Mom and Pop stores hiring people Norman Rockwell style, but of course that's not the reality.

    Speaking of Norman Rockwell, here's a nice painting of his:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Freedom_from_want_1943-Norman_Rockwell.jpg
  8. 04 Jul '11 19:42
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    if the rich are not hiring the populace who the heck is then ? barring govt. jobs ofcourse.
    Ah, I guess that's why everyone is unemployed around here.
  9. 04 Jul '11 19:46
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Umm...nobody. Recession, remember?

    In principle it's supposed to be Mom and Pop stores hiring people Norman Rockwell style, but of course that's not the reality.

    Speaking of Norman Rockwell, here's a nice painting of his:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Freedom_from_want_1943-Norman_Rockwell.jpg
    Fro you and KN... we do not have 100% unemployment rate. For the folks who are still employed and are not government workers who is employing them ? The "rich"?
  10. 04 Jul '11 19:48
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Fro you and KN... we do not have 100% unemployment rate. For the folks who are still employed and are not government workers who is employing them ? The "rich"?
    What's your definition of "rich"?
  11. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    04 Jul '11 19:49 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Fro you and KN... we do not have 100% unemployment rate. For the folks who are still employed and are not government workers who is employing them ? The "rich"?
    The ones I know are working for East Asian rich people, yes. Those were my last employers.

    Also, Jewish rich people. Those groups are who employ the people I know.

    I don't know statistically the answer to your question.

    Government jobs do make up quite a lot of jobs including police, military, public schools, even to some extent construction etc.

    Walmart is an Old Money family business. Those are the rich WASPs. Likewise fancy hotels like the Hiltons are rich people owned.
  12. 04 Jul '11 19:54
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What's your definition of "rich"?
    Obamas definition of the "rich" or "millionaires and billionaires" are families making over $200,000 a year. My definition is irrelevant.
  13. 04 Jul '11 19:56
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Fro you and KN... we do not have 100% unemployment rate. For the folks who are still employed and are not government workers who is employing them ? The "rich"?
    The vast majority of small business owners make well under the $250,000 threshold proposed for a marginal tax increase - to say nothing about the $1,000,000 income proposed compromise.




    http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-income-small-business-owners-5189.html

    A small business owner is an individual who manages his own organization. These entrepreneurs can be found within all industries, including retail, entertainment, financial services and law. A formal educational background is not required to become a successful small business owner. What is needed however is a good idea, a solid business plan and startup capital. Due to the variety of organizations that make up this sector, the average income of small business owners varies widely, depending upon level of experience, location of employment and gender.

    Average Income by Experience
    According to compensation survey administrator PayScale in 2010, the average income of small business owners varies widely depending upon their level of experience. For example, small business owners with less than one year of experience in running an organization earn an annual salary ranging from $34,392 to $75,076. Those with more than 10 years experience, on the other hand, earn upwards of $105,757 per year.

    Average Income by Gender
    The average income of small business owners is also affected by gender. Males earn a median annual salary that far surpassed their female counterparts. Payscale’s report indicated that men who own small businesses earn a salary that ranges from $42,575 to $96,111. Women, on the other hand, only earn $31,380 to $71,140 every year.

    Average Income by Industry
    The industry in which a small business operates also affects the average income of his owner. Some industries pay far more than others. For example, entrepreneurs who owned electrical contracting businesses make salaries that range from $49,910 to $114,000 each year. Child care providers, in contrast, make anywhere between $19,792 and $61,674 annually.

    Average Income by Special Skill
    Although a small business owner overseas is entire operation, it is not uncommon for him to have a specific skill set. For example, the owner of a financial services recruiting firm may have started his career as a tax accountant. The possession of special skills can affect an entrepreneur’s average income. Those with accounting skills, for instance, earn an average annual salary ranging from $38,884 to $81,313, while individuals with sales management experience earning income ranging from $45,000 to $104,762.

    Average Income by Region
    The region in which a small business is located also affects the average income of its owners. A report issued by PayScale indicated that entrepreneurs employed on the coasts earn more than their counterparts in the South and Midwest. Entrepreneurs in New York, for example, earned a median yearly salary upwards of $125,185, while those in Georgia top out at $75,500.


    Now here's some statistics that don't just include small business owners, but all of them.

    [quote]
    Business Owner Salary Comparison
    X Contributing WriterThis article was created by a professional writer and edited by experienced copy editors, both qualified members of the Demand Media Studios community. All articles go through an editorial process that includes subject matter guidelines, plagiarism review, fact-checking, and other steps in an effort to provide reliable information.
    By an eHow Contributor
    Print this articleBusiness owners lead and manage their own small companies and corporations. These businesses can include bookstores, art shops, medical coding firms, attorney firms, computer firms and employment coaching agencies. The owner is responsible for budgets, hiring, accounting duties, short term and long term planning for growth and purchasing supplies. Small-business owners must keep the company's prices competitive. The owner's salary varies according to years of experience, employer type, company size, city and state, gender and amount of sales expected each year.

    Average Salary by Years of Experience and Gender
    According to a 2009 PayScale survey, a female small-business owners' average annual salary is between $25,000 and $70,000. A male small-business owners' average salary falls between $50,000 and $100,000 per year. The average annual salary of an owner with one to four years' experience is $35,000; five to nine years' experience, $40,000; and 10 to 19 years' experience, $45,000.

    Average Salary by Employer Type
    Employer types include self-employed owner companies, franchise owners and owners of private practice companies. Self-employed company owners, make a salary between $40,000 and $100,000 per year according to the 2009 PayScale survey. Franchise-owned companies' owners make and annual average salary between $50,000 and $120,000; and private practice owners are paid between $80,000 and $180,000 per year.

    Average Salary by City
    Business owners in Houston have a median salary between $60,000 and $180,000 annually; owners in New York have the highest paying salary of between $60,000 and $200,000 per year. These are 2009 figures provided by PayScale.

    Average Salary by State
    Per PayScale, Texas, Illinois and California have the highest paid average salaries for a business owners. Texas is between $60,000 and $120,000, Illinois is between $50,000 and $170,000, and California is between $50,000 and $160,000 per year. These salaries are throughout the market for all types of businesses in these states in 2009.

    Average Salary by Company Size
    According to PayScale, the highest salary for a small-business owner at a company with between 200 and 599 employees was from $50,000 to $225,000 in 2009.

    Average Salary Based on Sales
    If the company had annual sales of up $99,999 the salary was as low as $60,000 annually, according to the 2009 PayScale survey. If the sales were between $100,000 and $1,900,000 per year the lowest average salary was $80,000 annually.

    Read more: Business Owner Salary Comparison | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5229133_business-owner-salary-comparison.html#ixzz1RAUieMwy[quote]
  14. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    04 Jul '11 19:58
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Obamas definition of the "rich" or "millionaires and billionaires" are families making over $200,000 a year. My definition is irrelevant.
    When referencing families, I'm pretty sure he's cited $250,000 as the cut-off, which is still in roughly the 97th/98th percentile of personal incomes in the U.S.
  15. 04 Jul '11 19:58
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Obamas definition of the "rich" or "millionaires and billionaires" are families making over $200,000 a year. My definition is irrelevant.
    Actually his proposal was to tax income over $250,000 per year back to the levels they were paying since the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993.

    I don't believe he's ever referred to people making $250K as "rich", unless you can show me otherwise. He's also open to compromise on the issue, such as only raising taxes in incomes over a million.