Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 31 Jul '12 11:47
    After recently looking into this I have found many different sources that don't agree on the answer to this question. I will post a couple links and hope others on this forum can help me find the answer with some degree of certainty.

    http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.jewish/2008-01/msg00256.html

    The following link indicates that Palestinians are related to Jews. I recall the story of Abraham from the bible indicating about the same thing, but I'm no expert on that.

    http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

    Are Palestinians related to Jews? Arabs? Ottoman-Turks?
    Help me out if you can.
  2. 31 Jul '12 11:48
    Irrelevant.
  3. 31 Jul '12 11:55
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Irrelevant.
    ...says the man of science.

    DNA testing is irrelevant? Did you even look at the second link?
  4. 31 Jul '12 12:06
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    ...says the man of science.

    DNA testing is irrelevant? Did you even look at the second link?
    No I didn't. I'm saying it's irrelevant because it should be irrelevant to people what their genetic heritage is like. Unfortnately it isn't.
  5. 31 Jul '12 17:30
    This is from Wikipedia.

    In genetic genealogy studies, Negev Bedouins have the highest rates of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) among all populations tested (62.5 followed by the Palestinian Arab 38.4%, Ashkenazi Jew 14.6%, and Sephardi Jew 11.9% according to Semino and colleagues.[citation needed] Semitic populations, including Jews, usually possess an excess of J1 Y chromosomes compared to other populations harboring Y-haplogroup J.[106][107][108][109][110] The haplogroup J1, associated with marker M267, originates south of the Levant and was first disseminated from there into Ethiopia and Europe in Neolithic times. In Jewish populations J1 has a rate of around 15%, with haplogroup J2 (M172) (of eight sub-Haplogroups) being almost twice as common as J1 among Jews (<29. J1 is most common in the southern Levant, as well as Syria, Iraq, Algeria, and Arabia, and drops sharply at the border of non-semitic areas like Turkey and Iran. A second diffusion of the J1 marker took place in the 7th century CE when Arabians brought it from Arabia to North Africa.[106]

    Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) includes the modal haplotype of the Galilee Arabs[111] and of Moroccan Arabs[112] and the sister Modal Haplotype of the Cohanim, the "Cohan Modale Haplotype", representing the descendents of the priestly caste Aaron.[113][114][115] J2 is known to be related to the ancient Greek movements and is found mainly in Europe and the central Mediterranean (Italy, the Balkans, Greece).

    A study found that the Palestinians, like Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Bedouins have what appears to be substantial gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa, amounting to 10-15% of lineages within the past three millennia.[116]

    According to a 2002 study by Nebel and colleagues[117] the highest frequency of Eu10 (i.e. J1) (30%–62.5 has been observed so far in various Muslim Arab populations in the Middle East.[118][119] The term "Arab," as well as the presence of Arabs in the Syrian desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE (Eph'al 1984).[120]

    In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians – and in some cases other Levantines – are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.[111]

    One DNA study by Nebel found genetic evidence in support of historical records that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD".[111] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Muslim Palestinians and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, though with some significant differences that might be explainable by the geographical isolation of the Jews or by immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.[111]



    Under the religious traditions of both Jews and Palestinians, Jews are the descendants of Isaac and the Palestinians the descendants of Ishmael - Biblical brothers. I don't know that the DNA history bears out such a tight relationship.
  6. 31 Jul '12 17:46
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    No I didn't. I'm saying it's irrelevant because it should be irrelevant to people what their genetic heritage is like. Unfortnately it isn't.
    The relevance of genetics has changed considerably over the last century. Progressives in the early 20th century were really solid on genetic determinism. Pure genetic determinism is today almost dead, but cultural determinism is still quite valid. People due to where they started, and what their culture was does somewhat determine future results, though not completely.

    Historically, geographic isolation seems to limit people of those cultures to the limits of that particular culture.

    It is relevant, but the question is how relevant that relevance is. It may change as cultural exposure increases in a world where isolation hardly exists.
  7. 31 Jul '12 18:47
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    No I didn't. I'm saying it's irrelevant because it should be irrelevant to people what their genetic heritage is like. Unfortnately it isn't.
    It is relevant to the false claims of racism against me, particularly when I pointed out that Palestinians and Jews were more alike than different.
  8. 31 Jul '12 18:47
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    This is from Wikipedia.

    [i]In genetic genealogy studies, Negev Bedouins have the highest rates of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) among all populations tested (62.5 followed by the Palestinian Arab 38.4%, Ashkenazi Jew 14.6%, and Sephardi Jew 11.9% according to Semino and colleagues.[citation needed] Semitic populations, including Jews, usually possess an excess o ...[text shortened]... ical brothers. I don't know that the DNA history bears out such a tight relationship.
    Thank you. I appreciate your efforts.
  9. 31 Jul '12 18:51 / 1 edit
    From what I've read, most of what we classify as Palestineans today are simply Egyptian immigrants who moved north to find jobs opportunities that became available after Israel came into existance.

    A pefect example of this is Arafat who was born in Egypt.
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    01 Aug '12 00:09 / 5 edits
    Various human subspecies (Neandertal, Erectus) left Africa many hundreds of thousands of years ago.

    Our subspecies, Homo Sapiens Sapiens, originated about 200,000 years ago in Tanzania with the Sandawe population. One branch of this population crossed the sea from Ethiopia to Arabia about 90,000 BCE. These were the first Semitic people.

    One branch of Semites went to Canaan (the Israel/Palestine region west of the Dead Sea). These were the Canaanite Semites. One branch of these were the Hebrews. This is why Hebrew is classified as a Canaanite Semitic language.

    There was little interaction between different populations at this time because population density was extremely low.

    As time went on, the rest of the world was colonized and population densities rose. Global warming led to rising sea levels about 10,000 BCE, concentrating populations even more and leading to the Neolithic revolution, agriculture, warfare, civilization etc. Eden, which is just east of Kuwait, is flooded and Sumerians have to flee the water. They write down the first stories that become Genesis thousands of years later.

    ~2,000 BCE Various chariot-riding Indo Europeans begin to establish empires and conquer other cultures. These cultures used the Swastika to symbolize their mighty chariot wheels.

    1,792 BCE Hammurabi

    ~1,500 BCE Egyptians and Indo-Europeans (Akkadians, maybe Hittites) begin to war with one another in Canaan. Indo Europeans introduced composite bows and chariots to Egypt, and Egypt eventually learned to master these new weapon systems.

    (Elsewhere, European iron age begins at this time. Germanics begin slaughtering Celts with the iron weapons Celts taught them how to make).

    1,475 BCE Egypt conquers Canaan and enslaves the Jews.

    1,392 BCE Moses is born.

    ~1,300 BCE Egypt wars with the other chariot cultures.

    1,274 BCE Battle of Kadesh between Egypt and Hittites. Biggest chariot battle ever.

    1,271 BCE Death of Moses.

    ~1,200 BCE Indo European "Sea People" begin to harass the civilizations of the Eastern Mediterranean. They conquer Cyprus and destroy the Minoan civilization. They harass Egypt too.

    1,190 BCE Trojan War. The Greeks were probably "Sea People" and the Trojan War just one of many "Sea People" invasions of Africa and Asia from Europe.

    ~1175 BCE Indo European "Sea People" (including Philistines) comprehensively defeated by Ramses III, who fought them in "Djahi" (the eastern Mediterranean coast) and at "the mouths of the rivers" (the Nile delta), recording his victories in a series of inscriptions in his mortuary temple at Medinet Habu. These "Sea People" then settle the Gaza Strip and establish the Philistine state, now known as the Gaza Strip part of Palestine, possibly as a client state of Egypt. At this time the Philistines controlled five cities known as the Pentapolis of which Gaza was the south-westernmost.

    1150 BC: Final Egyptian withdrawal from southern Canaan.

    ~1,000 BCE David and Goliath, first Kingdom of Israel, Hebrew originates as a written language, Torah written after this time.

    ~~~~~~~~

    Philistines quickly absorb Canaanite culture and become "Semiticized". Despite their non-Semitic roots they become very Semitic in culture due to interaction with other powers in Canaan.

    Rome and Parthia are the next regional superpowers. Then AFTER Muhammed dies in 632 CE, the Arabs expand, and Palestine became Arabized.

    ~~~~~~~~

    Now, AFTER you've read all that, go back and look at the Old Testament (Genesis especially). It will make more sense.

    http://www.bricktestament.com/genesis/
  11. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    01 Aug '12 00:17
    Originally posted by Eladar
    From what I've read, most of what we classify as Palestineans today are simply Egyptian immigrants who moved north to find jobs opportunities that became available after Israel came into existance.

    A pefect example of this is Arafat who was born in Egypt.
    You should read something besides propaganda.

    Arafat's family history is pretty much the opposite of the archetype you discuss; his parents were Palestinians who went to Cairo (for a time) because of economic opportunities there. From wiki:

    Arafat was born in Cairo to Palestinian parents.[6] His father, Abdel Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini, was a Palestinian from Gaza, whose mother, Yasser's paternal grandmother, was Egyptian. Arafat's father worked as a textile merchant in Cairo's religiously mixed Sakakini District. Arafat was the second-youngest of seven children and was, along with his younger brother Fathi, the only offspring born in Cairo. His mother, Zahwa Abul Saud, was from a Jerusalem family. She died from a kidney ailment in 1933, when Arafat was four years of age.[7]
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    01 Aug '12 00:29
    Originally posted by Eladar
    From what I've read, most of what we classify as Palestineans today are simply Egyptian immigrants who moved north to find jobs opportunities that became available after Israel came into existance.

    A pefect example of this is Arafat who was born in Egypt.
    In fact:

    By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times.

    http://mideastweb.org/palpop.htm
  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    01 Aug '12 02:30 / 12 edits
    Also 1,000 BCE is about when the Bantu Expansion began, in which Black Africans expanded throughout sub-Saharan Africa from their original homeland of Nigeria and Camaroon. They made it to the South African coast about 300 CE, just about the time of the fall of the Roman Empire. This made a sort of informal ethnic empire similar to the Nordic one or the central Eurasian horse archer one (Huns) in some ways (or the Latin/Catholic one).

    King Arthur's Britons dominated by Germanics would be equivalent to the Khoisan dominated by Blacks (or Slavs to the dominating Huns, Basques to the dominating Latins) in this analogy.

    East Asia during this time period:

    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/tps/1000bce.htm

    In the Americas, the Olmecs invent writing in 900 BCE, roughly the same time the Hebrews become literate and write down Genesis.

    Hindu Vedas originate about 1,500 BCE in oral form and much later (100 BCE) in written form.
  14. 01 Aug '12 20:56
    Originally posted by Eladar
    From what I've read, most of what we classify as Palestineans today are simply Egyptian immigrants who moved north to find jobs opportunities that became available after Israel came into existance.

    A pefect example of this is Arafat who was born in Egypt.
    I don't know where you read that, but it's dead wrong. First of all, nobody would move to the occupied territories to look for jobs. There aren't any. Secondly, the primary nationality within the population of Palestine excluding Israel (since the purge decades ago) are the Jordanians, meaning that Egypt doesn't even come in second.
  15. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    01 Aug '12 21:43
    The year is 1,392 BCE. Caught between rival Indo-European and Egyptian empires, the Jews have become enslaved to the Egyptians.

    Palestine does not yet exist.

    A child is born. A child venerated by all the major monotheistic religions, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

    http://www.bricktestament.com/exodus/moses_is_born/ex02_01-02.html

    The Bible can be fun for any one even unbelievers like me