Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    09 Sep '18 15:13
    Tariffs are a tax added to the cost of imported goods from certain countries. In order to be effective at reducing trade with another country, that tax must bring the cost up to the domestic manufacturer's price.

    Here is a hypothetical example:

    Let's say a ton of steel from China costs $1,000.00 and after Trump's 25% tariff it becomes $1,250.00 for an American manufacturer to purchase.
    If the average steel manufacturer in the USA sells their steel for about $1,330.00 then barbed wire manufacturers are still going to buy China's steel. Then the result is a barbed wire manufacturer that is losing money because they are paying an extra $250 per ton of steel and they pass much of that cost to farmers and they struggle to keep the farm.

    Government gets the extra $250 tax per ton it screwed the barbed wire manufacturer for, farmers go out of business from the inflated costs, China is still selling us a lot of steel and our domestic steel manufacturers do not hire more workers.

    Screwed again.

    Okay, it is just a hypothetical example and maybe tariffs are above the average domestic steel price. I simply do not know what the prices are, but I would like to know so I am assured it is not a scam. After all, what if Trump uses that extra tax (tariff) money to build the wall at the Mexican border? That would mean he is making domestic manufacturers who buy steel pay for the wall!

    Last I knew the domestic steel manufacturers were not hiring more people and the trade deficit has only gotten worse. Perhaps there will be a lag effect and everything will be just fine.

    Will everything be just fine in the end?

    Are you all curious about the post tariff cost difference now?
  2. Joined
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    09 Sep '18 15:521 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Tariffs are a tax added to the cost of imported goods from certain countries. In order to be effective at reducing trade with another country, that tax must bring the cost up to the domestic manufacturer's price.

    Here is a hypothetical example:

    Let's say a ton of steel from China costs $1,000.00 and after Trump's 25% tariff it becomes $1,250.00 fo ...[text shortened]... thing be just fine in the end?

    Are you all curious about the post tariff cost difference now?
    The tariffs offset the tax cuts.
    So let's call it even.

    Meanwhile Trump continues his own personal agenda behind the scenes.

    That is .... Enriching himself !!
    Like Putin has done in Russia.

    And to keep the media distracted, just keep pumping out the scandals.
    Stormy, Charleston, op-ed and on and on ...

    Oh and btw, toss in a couple conservative SCOTUS appointments to keep the Evangelicals happy, keep talking about immigration and MS13, and that beautiful wall to keep the White Supremists happy, and MAGA to keep the trailer parks onboard.

    And you have one happy voter base !! 😆
  3. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    09 Sep '18 16:251 edit
    Originally posted by @mghrn55
    The tariffs offset the tax cuts.
    So let's call it even.

    Meanwhile Trump continues his own personal agenda behind the scenes.

    That is .... Enriching himself !!
    Like Putin has done in Russia.

    And to keep the media distracted, just keep pumping out the scandals.
    Stormy, Charleston, op-ed and on and on ...

    Oh and btw, toss in a couple conservativ ...[text shortened]... ts happy, and MAGA to keep the trailer parks onboard.

    And you have one happy voter base !! 😆
    "And you have one happy voter base !!"

    Plus, guaranteed future rebellion, by the remaining 65%.
  4. Joined
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    09 Sep '18 16:30
    Originally posted by @mghrn55
    The tariffs offset the tax cuts.
    So let's call it even.

    Meanwhile Trump continues his own personal agenda behind the scenes.

    That is .... Enriching himself !!
    Like Putin has done in Russia.

    And to keep the media distracted, just keep pumping out the scandals.
    Stormy, Charleston, op-ed and on and on ...

    Oh and btw, toss in a couple conservativ ...[text shortened]... ts happy, and MAGA to keep the trailer parks onboard.

    And you have one happy voter base !! 😆
    Not everyone pays taxes. Some people are too poor too tax, so it is not even.
  5. Joined
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    09 Sep '18 17:45
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Not everyone pays taxes. Some people are too poor too tax, so it is not even.
    So ....
    Too poor to tax.
    And too rich to tax.

    That leaves the middle class.
  6. Joined
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    09 Sep '18 17:49
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Tariffs are a tax added to the cost of imported goods from certain countries. In order to be effective at reducing trade with another country, that tax must bring the cost up to the domestic manufacturer's price.

    Here is a hypothetical example:

    Let's say a ton of steel from China costs $1,000.00 and after Trump's 25% tariff it becomes $1,250.00 fo ...[text shortened]... thing be just fine in the end?

    Are you all curious about the post tariff cost difference now?
    your analysis incorrectly assumes us manufacturers keep their cost higher than imports. tariffs are meant to level the playing field. no taxes are collected from imports other than sales taxes. Many taxes are generated by US manufactured goods, along with US jobs. The money used for buying imports leaves our system.
  7. Joined
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    10 Sep '18 01:42
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    your analysis incorrectly assumes us manufacturers keep their cost higher than imports. tariffs are meant to level the playing field. no taxes are collected from imports other than sales taxes. Many taxes are generated by US manufactured goods, along with US jobs. The money used for buying imports leaves our system.
    In a perfect world.
    But tariffs can be weaponized.
    I.e. to give an advantage to domestic industries.

    Greed is good !!
  8. Joined
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    10 Sep '18 01:56
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    your analysis incorrectly assumes us manufacturers keep their cost higher than imports. tariffs are meant to level the playing field. no taxes are collected from imports other than sales taxes. Many taxes are generated by US manufactured goods, along with US jobs. The money used for buying imports leaves our system.
    You are wrong. Tariffs are a tax and it taxes those that purchase the import. For example, China still gets the $1,000 per ton price it always has so it does not tax China. It taxes Americans that buy China's steel. They don't have to buy China's steel, but cost difference is what is important. Businesses tend to buy steel at the better price as long as the quality of the steel is acceptable.

    "your analysis incorrectly assumes us manufacturers keep their cost higher than imports."

    I never assumed anything. I gave a hypothetical example of how tariffs could be a scam. I said very clearly in my OP that I didn't know what the price difference post tariffs are. Do you know? If so please tell us.
  9. Behind the scenes
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    10 Sep '18 05:56
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Tariffs are a tax added to the cost of imported goods from certain countries. In order to be effective at reducing trade with another country, that tax must bring the cost up to the domestic manufacturer's price.

    Here is a hypothetical example:

    Let's say a ton of steel from China costs $1,000.00 and after Trump's 25% tariff it becomes $1,250.00 fo ...[text shortened]... thing be just fine in the end?

    Are you all curious about the post tariff cost difference now?
    I understand Donald Trump wants to do something about our trade deficits with other countries, but this ham handed scheme of slapping tariffs on imported goods is an oversimplified and juvenile solution to a complicated problem. There are too many variables at work here to be able to solve them with tariffs. A scam? perhaps, but I think of it as a 4 year old holding his breath and throwing a tantrum.
  10. Germany
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    10 Sep '18 06:35
    Originally posted by @mchill
    I understand Donald Trump wants to do something about our trade deficits with other countries, but this ham handed scheme of slapping tariffs on imported goods is an oversimplified and juvenile solution to a complicated problem. There are too many variables at work here to be able to solve them with tariffs. A scam? perhaps, but I think of it as a 4 year old holding his breath and throwing a tantrum.
    A complicated problem that isn't even a problem. Donald Trump just sees the word "trade deficit" and from this concludes that the U.S. is "losing on trade" using a third grader's economic analysis.
  11. Standard membershavixmir
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    10 Sep '18 07:311 edit
    Mhmmm… I think there’s not a complete understanding of trade deficit and import tax (trade tariffs)..

    Say the US needs 100 metal a year.
    Now, the US produced 100 metal a year. But the workers thought they were being underpaid. So they unionized and demanded better wages.
    From the 1970’s / 80’s on companies decided they didn’t want less profits, so that meant they had to move their metal factories to foreign countries. Or cut out the factory part completely and import the metal from foreign countries. And metal workers, instead of higher wages, got the sack.

    So, let’s say 80 of the needed 100 metal is imported from foreign countries.
    There are agreements with different countries about import-tax levels.
    Trump calls this a trade deficit. It’s not really though. The US pays money and receives metal. So it’s basically an equal situation.

    Now, to combat this trade deficit, the US has now placed extremely high taxes on metal coming from foreign countries.
    Remember, the US still needs 100 metal a year. And that metal is now becoming more expensive.
    The US itself can make 20 metal a year. But 80 metal a year now costs a lot more.

    trump says that this will increase US metal production, because 80 metal a year extra is needed.
    So, the import companies can choose to open metal factories and pay high wages to workers (lowering the companies’ profits). Or they can choose to maintain their profit levels and pass the bill on to Americans who need the metal for all sorts of metallic things (cars, telephones, housing, Space Force rockets, etc.). This means passing the added tax on to the customers.

    Which option do you think the companies are going to choose? Remember, the US NEEDS 100 metal a year. So they’re going to buy it anyway.

    That’s right. The companies are going to maintain their profit margins. So metal becomes more expensive (because of the added tax). That means everyone who uses the 100 metal in their products has to pay more for the metal.
    Do you think the people who make these products are going to lower their profit margins? Of course not. Joe public is going to pay for the extra costs on cars, telephones, houses and space rockets.

    And this extra tax money that the government rakes in… do you think that’s going to be spent on infrastructure? On education? On health? On making the products which have become more expensive cheaper?
    Do you hear the trump administration promising this part?

    And the evil countries who’ve manoeuvred the US into this trade deficit… how exactly do they get punished for this?
    And if you read the above and understood it, you know the answer to this question.
  12. Joined
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    10 Sep '18 11:33
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    You are wrong. Tariffs are a tax and it taxes those that purchase the import. For example, China still gets the $1,000 per ton price it always has so it does not tax China. It taxes Americans that buy China's steel. They don't have to buy China's steel, but cost difference is what is important. Businesses tend to buy steel at the better price as long as ...[text shortened]... hat I didn't know what the price difference post tariffs are. Do you know? If so please tell us.
    I never said tariffs weren't taxes. And yes...your hypothetical assumed imports would be cheaper than domestic. It appears you don't understand taxes generated from domestically produced vs imported.


    Once purchased, import money leaves our system. Domestically produced creates payroll income taxes and taxes every time something is bought with that money...it stays in our system.
  13. Joined
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    10 Sep '18 11:41
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    A complicated problem that isn't even a problem. Donald Trump just sees the word "trade deficit" and from this concludes that the U.S. is "losing on trade" using a third grader's economic analysis.
    it is amusing watching internet posters claiming to know more that a billionaire...
    LOL
  14. Joined
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    10 Sep '18 11:49
    China has a 25% duty on US car imports...The US has a 2.5% on China car imports...

    Using your logic...is China doing a dumb thing?
  15. Standard membershavixmir
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    10 Sep '18 15:531 edit
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    China has a 25% duty on US car imports...The US has a 2.5% on China car imports...

    Using your logic...is China doing a dumb thing?
    China are retaliating with a 25% tariff on US cars.

    Now, think it through.
    Does China need US cars or can they get cars anywhere else?
    The US needs metal. China doesn’t need US cars (in other words, the US says it wants to use US metal; which as I explained is hurting US citizens).

    Now, the US companies who sell cars have to buy metal at a higher price. And when they try to sell cars to China, their prices on the market have increased even more; less Chinese people buying US cars (buying a Toyota or a VW instead, say).

    So the US is doubly screwed.

    All hail the wisdom of your billionair Mott.

    It’s time for you to open your eyes to what’s being done to you.

    Edit: and just so you know, this is probably what European politicians tried to point out to him in Canada.
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