Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    19 Aug '18 19:412 edits
    "Obama was highly respected (still is) by the world."
    --FabianFnas

    That depends to the extent that ignorant gullible people swallow US propaganda.
    Indeed, one can make a good case that Barack Obama should be indicted for war crimes,
    though US Presidents seem too powerful to be held accountable in international court.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-drone-war-is-a-shameful-part-of-his-legacy/2016/05/05/a727eea8-12ea-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html?utm_term=.a8d30fa8cffd

    "Obama’s drone war is a shameful part of his legacy"
    --James Downie (5 May 2016)

    "There have long been policy, constitutional and moral questions about the drone
    program — all made more difficult to answer by the Obama administration’s refusal to
    even acknowledge the program until 2013."

    "Obama’s embrace of drones has led to a preference for killing rather than capturing terrorists."

    "The leaked documents show the disturbing ease with which an innocent civilian —
    American or not — can be added to the U.S. government’s main terrorist database,
    such as on the basis of a single “uncorroborated” Facebook or Twitter post.
    In a 2014 court filing, the government admitted that 469,000 people had been nominated
    in 2013 for inclusion in an additional government database of “known or suspected terrorists.”
    Only 4,900 were rejected. Presumption of innocence this is not."

    "Furthermore, it’s clear from the documents that the White House has overstated the
    prudence with which it undertakes strikes. In May 2013, Obama said that strikes would
    be conducted only against those who were a “continuing and imminent threat to the
    American people” and only if there were “near certainty” that there would be no civilian casualties.
    But the documents show that when the president approves a strike on an individual, the
    Pentagon and CIA (both of which conduct strikes) have a 60-day window to act.
    You don’t need a dictionary to know that 60 days is not “imminent.” And the ISR study
    says that the standard for drone strikes is not “no civilian casualties,” only that it must
    be a “low” collateral damage estimate."

    Few Americans sincerely object to the USA killing non-white civilians abroad.

    "What makes Obama’s policy even more disappointing is that whoever succeeds him will
    likely widen the program further. Obama at least gives the impression of taking the
    constitutional and moral consequences of the drone program seriously, even if this has
    been only a small restraint on the program. But Hillary Clinton has stoutly defended the
    drone program inside the White House as secretary of state, afterward in her memoir
    and on the campaign trail. Given her hawkishness compared with Obama, it seems likely
    that the program would only grow under her. And Donald Trump? Well, he has already
    promised to commit war crimes."

    The USA is a rogue state (to quote William Blum, a former State Department official),
    which routinely puts deadly expediency ahead of international law and conventions.
  2. Zugzwang
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    19 Aug '18 19:47
    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-01-17/obamas-covert-drone-war-in-numbers-ten-times-more-strikes-than-bush

    "Obama’s covert drone war in numbers: ten times more strikes than Bush"

    "Obama embraced the US drone programme, overseeing more strikes in his first year
    than Bush carried out during his entire presidency."

    "The Obama administration has insisted that drone strikes are so “exceptionally surgical
    and precise” that they pluck off terror suspects while not putting “innocent men, women
    and children in danger”."

    Most Americans apparently prefer to believe this cherished fantasy of US propaganda.

    "This claim has been contested by numerous human rights groups, however, and the
    Bureau’s figures on civilian casualties also demonstrate that this is often not the case."

    Few Americans sincerely object to the USA killing non-white civilians abroad.
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    19 Aug '18 21:471 edit
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-obama-administrations-drone-strike-dissembling/473541/

    "The Obama Administration's Drone-Strike Dissembling
    Debunking John Brennan’s claim that “the president requires near-certainty of no collateral damage”
    to allow a drone killing to go forward."
    --Conor Friedersdorf (14 March 2016)

    "The notion that the Obama Administration has carried out drone strikes only when there is
    “near-certainty of no collateral damage” is easily disproved propaganda. America hasn’t
    killed a handful of innocents or a few dozen in the last 8 years. Credible, independent
    attempts to determine how many civilians the Obama administration has killed arrived at
    numbers in the hundreds or low thousands. And there is good reason to believe that
    they undercount the civilians killed.

    Why the disparity between what American officials claim and what others report?
    The New York Times provided a first clue back in 2012, when it reported that the U.S.
    “in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to
    several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving
    them innocent." The same sort of dishonest standard was described last last year when
    a whistleblower provided The Intercept with a cache of documents detailing the U.S. military’s
    drone killings in Afghanistan, Yemen, and Somalia. One campaign, Operation Haymaker,
    took place in northeastern Afghanistan.

    “Between January 2012 and February 2013,” The Intercept reported, “U.S. special operations
    airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets.
    During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly
    90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets.”
    That’s one campaign of many in just one country where drone killings happen.
    Said the source of the documents: “Anyone caught in the vicinity is guilty by association."

    "The source described official U.S. government statements minimizing the number of
    civilian casualties inflicted by drone strikes as “exaggerating at best, if not outright lies.”

    "Numerous reports during the Obama Administration––including at least one by a former
    drone pilot––describe a pattern in which a missile fired from a U.S. drone hits an area,
    bystanders rush to the scene to help the wounded, and the drone, still overhead, kills
    the rescuers. On other occasions, drones have struck at funerals of drone-strike victims.
    It is hard to believe the threshold of “near certainty” is crossed in either kind of strike."

    "It’s worth recalling that this isn’t the first time that [John] Brennan has made fantastical,
    widely debunked claims about the number of innocents that U.S. drones kill."

    Let the record show that John Brennan has been eager to lie in order to cover up murders.
  4. Behind the scenes
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    20 Aug '18 08:123 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-01-17/obamas-covert-drone-war-in-numbers-ten-times-more-strikes-than-bush

    "Obama’s covert drone war in numbers: ten times more strikes than Bush"

    "Obama embraced the US drone programme, overseeing more strikes in his first year
    than Bush carried out during his entire presidency."

    "The Obama adm ...[text shortened]... not the case."

    Few Americans sincerely object to the USA killing non-white civilians abroad.
    Few Americans sincerely object to the USA killing non-white civilians abroad



    Having Duchess here to remind us what an evil country America is, and what evil racist and sexist villains white males truly are has been a fulfilling and spiritual experience. Now that this has been made crystal clear to us (again) does Duchess plan to play chess here or pay membership dues one of these days?? 🙂
  5. SubscriberWOLFE63
    Tra il dire e il far
    C'e di mezzo il mar!
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    20 Aug '18 08:312 edits
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Few Americans sincerely object to the USA killing non-white civilians abroad



    Having Duchess here to remind us what an evil country America is, and what evil racist and sexist villains white males truly are has been a fulfilling and spiritual experience. Now that this has been made crystal clear to us (again) does Duchess plan to play chess here or pay membership dues one of these days?? 🙂
    A free-loader never grabs the check...but still complains about the food.
  6. Joined
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    20 Aug '18 09:24
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Obama was highly respected (still is) by the world."
    --FabianFnas

    That depends to the extent that ignorant gullible people swallow US propaganda.
    Indeed, one can make a good case that Barack Obama should be indicted for war crimes,
    though US Presidents seem too powerful to be held accountable in international court.
    Well, this is how people around the world (with exceptions of course) think about Obama. If you see that Obama has a good propaganda machine going, well, he didn't sanction a lot of countries around the world. Trump does.

    Trump has certainly not a good propaganda machine going. Because people around the world is not respecting Trump, oh no, not at all (with some exceptions of course).

    Democracy is failing. Free trade is failing. Humanitarian actions are failing. Friendship with allies is failing. Climate progress is failing. The list is long.

    Obama made USA respected. Trump makes USA weak. Do you think this is propaganda?
  7. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
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    20 Aug '18 09:47
    Originally posted by @fabianfnas
    Well, this is how people around the world (with exceptions of course) think about Obama. If you see that Obama has a good propaganda machine going, well, he didn't sanction a lot of countries around the world. Trump does.

    Trump has certainly not a good propaganda machine going. Because people around the world is not respecting Trump, oh no, not at all ...[text shortened]... ist is long.

    Obama made USA respected. Trump makes USA weak. Do you think this is propaganda?
    Obama was a bastard.
    Obviously, compared to trump, a charismatic and intelligent one, but a bastard all the same.
  8. Joined
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    20 Aug '18 10:45
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Obama was a bastard.
    Obviously, compared to trump, a charismatic and intelligent one, but a bastard all the same.
    Yes, that is generally the propaganda...
  9. Joined
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    20 Aug '18 13:19
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    Obama was a bastard.
    Obviously, compared to trump, a charismatic and intelligent one, but a bastard all the same.
    I put "Obama is a bastard" in a search engine and found this:

    https://news.vice.com/article/kidnap-obama-extradite-the-bastard-a-british-politician-urged-israel-to-lock-up-the-us-president

    "Jeremy Zeid, UKIP's candidate for Hendon, northwest London, stood down after suggesting that the Israelis "do an Eichmann" on the US President — a reference to notorious Holocaust organizer Adolf Eichmann, who was kidnapped by Israeli intelligence in 1960, and later hanged."

    LOL!
  10. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    20 Aug '18 17:362 edits
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Few Americans sincerely object to the USA killing non-white civilians abroad

    Having Duchess here to remind us what an evil country America is, and what evil racist and sexist villains white males truly are has been a fulfilling and spiritual experience. Now that this has been made crystal clear to us (again) does Duchess plan to play chess here or pay membership dues one of these days?? 🙂
    Attack the messenger; ignore the message is a standard reaction by jingoistic Americans.
    Like other jingoistic Americans, the hateful racist troll Mchill waves the US flag.

    Even some American newspapers have noted that the mainstream US media shows much
    more interest in the palace intrigue and celebrity gossip at the White House than in the
    continuing US killing of many innocent non-white civilians abroad.
  11. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    20 Aug '18 17:382 edits
    Originally posted by @wolfe63 to Mchill
    A free-loader never grabs the check...but still complains about the food.
    Attack the messenger; ignore the message is a standard reaction by jingoistic Americans.
    The jingoistic American troll Wolfe63 keeps showing his eagerness to censor me.
    Of course, the hypocritical troll Wolfe63 would not object to any non-subscriber posting
    as long as it agreed with his own fanatical jingoistic opinion of American superiority.
  12. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    20 Aug '18 17:451 edit
    Originally posted by @fabianfnas
    Well, this is how people around the world (with exceptions of course) think about Obama. If you see that Obama has a good propaganda machine going, well, he didn't sanction a lot of countries around the world. Trump does.

    Trump has certainly not a good propaganda machine going. Because people around the world is not respecting Trump, oh no, not at all ...[text shortened]... ist is long.

    Obama made USA respected. Trump makes USA weak. Do you think this is propaganda?
    My impression is that FabianFnas was NOT lauding President Obama ONLY for having
    a 'good propaganda machine' and being more successful than President Trump at lying
    and covering up US war crimes.

    My impression is that FabianFnas eagerly swallows most of the US propaganda and perceives
    the USA, at least when not ruled by President Trump, through rose-colored glasses.
    In reality, Barack Obama's foreign and military policies (including sanctions) continued
    US imperialism.

    "Obama made USA respected."
    --FabianFnas

    An exaggeration. Respected by whom? Western allies of the USA?
    As a Westerner, FabianFnas may cling to the delusion that almost everyone else in the
    world admires and supports US imperialism. Many governments may profess to support
    US imperialism out of fear of being bullied by the USA, but many of their people disagree.
  13. Zugzwang
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    20 Aug '18 17:481 edit
    Originally posted by @shavixmir to FabianFnas
    Obama was a bastard.
    Obviously, compared to trump, a charismatic and intelligent one, but a bastard all the same.
    Almost all the 'liberal' Americans here apparently practically worship Barack Obama, while condoning
    the USA's many war crimes and other abuses committed by his orders or with his approval.
    Barack Obama's one of the least deserving recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize.
  14. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    20 Aug '18 17:50
    Originally posted by @metal-brain to Shavixmir
    I put "Obama is a bastard" in a search engine and found this:

    https://news.vice.com/article/kidnap-obama-extradite-the-bastard-a-british-politician-urged-israel-to-lock-up-the-us-president

    "Jeremy Zeid, UKIP's candidate for Hendon, northwest London, stood down after suggesting that the Israelis "do an Eichmann" on the US President — a ...[text shortened]... er Adolf Eichmann, who was kidnapped by Israeli intelligence in 1960, and later hanged."

    LOL!
    In fact, President Obama was very pro-Israeli, just not quite as extremely pro-Israeli as President Trump.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    20 Aug '18 17:59
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    My impression is that FabianFnas was NOT lauding President Obama ONLY for having
    a 'good propaganda machine' and being more successful than President Trump at lying
    and covering up US war crimes.

    My impression is that FabianFnas eagerly swallows most of the US propaganda and perceives
    the USA, at least when not ruled by President Trump, through rose ...[text shortened]... port
    US imperialism out of fear of being bullied by the USA, but many of their people disagree.
    For whatever it is worth, Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes & Trends annual surveys showed both "Confidence in the US President" and "Favorable View of the US" rising sharply while Obama was in office and plummeting after Trump's inauguration. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-the-world-thinks-of-trump/
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