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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 21 May '11 22:12 / 1 edit
    I can remember in the 80's traditional martial arts like Kung Fu and Karate were the hot thing. Bruce Lee made Kung Fu popular throughout the 70's, as did the show (called 'Kung Fu). Hollywood popularized Karate through popular names like Chuck Norris and through movies like the Karate kid.

    Back then the conventional wisdom told us that if someone is a black belt in Karate for Kung Fu - "Don't mess with that guy!"

    In came mixed martial arts and the iconic Gracie family. Has anyone seen UFC 1? Although most of those fighters would get slaughtered today, it is arguably the most entertaining UFC bouts ever made. It pitted single-art fighters against each other. A kick boxer verse a Sumo wrestler, a traditional boxer vs BJJ, etc. No weight class and almost no rules.

    In the early stages of UFC the Gracies dominated, particularly Royce Gracie. Time and time again their Brazilian Jiu Jitsu would crush traditional martial artists and it soon became clear arts like Karate and Kung fu are relatively weak.

    In a short time the very face of martial arts was changed in the US (and world I presume). The UFC also went through relatively quick changes. Fighters began adopting more practical arts, most commonly Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for ground work and various versions of Kick Boxing (as well as straight boxing) for striking. The sport also became very controversial, and as a result some limiting rules were put in place. The UFC also tinkered with different fighting formats. Martial arts outside the UFC went through big changes as well. . Today our cities and towns are flooded with studios who generally teach (with some variation) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu combined with Muay Thai (a variation of kick boxing). If not Brazilian Jiu Jitsu it will be something similar. If not Muay Thai, likewise.

    Let's rewind a little bit. It is said, although I cannot confirm, that the Gracie family invented Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - which is why some refer to it as "Gracie Jiu Jitsu." The Gracies are a large family with lots of male siblings. As the story goes a Japanese Judo master befriended and tought one, who in turn made some changes (creating Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) and he tought the others. Judo is an old Japanese art that focuses on throws, trips and sweeps, with some follow on ground work. The Gracies focused entirely on the ground work of Judo, refining, improving it, and thus creating the a new art.

    I have always been a huge Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fan, but I recently started becoming a big fan of traditional Judo. A few MMA fighters have been able to utilize Judo with some success, but they do have a disadvantage. They're not fighting on hard flooring or concrete as you would be on the street. The surface of fighting rings are generally made to have some give in order to prevent injury. Also, you're going up against shirtless, sweaty guys so there's less to grab and they're slippery. That can certainly be the case on the street, but most of the time your opponent will be wearing some type of clothing you can grab and use. Even a T-shirt allows for some choke techniques.

    So yeah, I've began taking Judo classes. I'm able to hang decently against the experienced Judo guys on the ground. But when it comes to stand up Judo, the take downs and such, I'm pretty weak compared to those guys. I've only gone to 4 classes so far and I have been seeing improvement each time.

    So let's discuss. What's the most practical martial art? Is there an art you feel is underrated? Does anyone feel MMA is not really a good guage to compare different arts?

    My picks for the most practical martial arts: Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
    Most underrated martial arts: Judo and Boxing.
  2. 21 May '11 22:26
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    I can remember in the 80's traditional martial arts like Kung Fu and Karate were the hot thing. Bruce Lee made Kung Fu popular throughout the 70's, as did the show (called 'Kung Fu). Hollywood popularized Karate through popular names like Chuck Norris and through movies like the Karate kid.

    Back then the conventional wisdom told us that if some ...[text shortened]... Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
    Most underrated martial arts: Judo and Boxing.
    Bruce Lee did popularize martial more than anybody for the western world. Wing Chun was his kung fu style but what he was most noted for was jeet kune do (JKD) which was a mixture of various martial arts from around the world combined into one style; western boxing, muay thai, phillipano, kung fu, various forms of karate, ect. ect. Bruce Lee was the first true MMArtist, without him their never would be a UFC or anything close.
    Martial arts has progressed substantially due to Bruce Lee more so than any other.
  3. 21 May '11 22:33
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Bruce Lee did popularize martial more than anybody for the western world. Wing Chun was his kung fu style but what he was most noted for was jeet kune do (JKD) which was a mixture of various martial arts from around the world combined into one style; western boxing, muay thai, phillipano, kung fu, various forms of karate, ect. ect. Bruce Lee was the ...[text shortened]... hing close.
    Martial arts has progressed substantially due to Bruce Lee more so than any other.
    True, Bruce Lee was a mixed martial artist but I'm not sure how you can argue that without him there wouldn't be a UFC.

    Bruce Lee was also a physical freak, arguably super human.

    Physical feats

    Lee's phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats.[76][77][78] The following list includes some of the physical feats of which, according to author John Little, Lee was capable:

    Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.[79]
    Lee could take in one arm a 75 lb barbell from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest and slowly stick his arms out locking them, holding the barbell there for several seconds.[80]
    In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.[81]
    Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger.[78][82]
    Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.[83]
    Lee could cause a 300-lb (136.08 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick.[78]
    Also, according to the Intercepting Fist DVD, Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.[77]


    I wonder if, and how much Bruce Lee worked on his ground game. I don't remember any publicity of him training in that area.
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    21 May '11 22:39 / 5 edits
    Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Boxing etc are sports that are far removed from their fighting origins. The TKD guys that fight in UFC are clueless about real fighting. They're sportsmen.

    Learn the TKD Horse Stance and Judo folks will have a hard time fighting you.

    Ground grappling is good for a duel but Karate and Tae Kwon Do emphasize dropping the other guy FAST and not letting him take you down. Those deep stances and short range punches are intended for fighting grapplers I believe. Keep your center of gravity between your feet and lower than the other guy's and it's hard to take you down.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTSgnaG3mhg

    The Tae Kwon Do that is taught to the actual Korean military is probably pretty practical. You can kick while holding a rifle or staff...
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    21 May '11 22:49 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    Gene LeBell worked with him on grappling.
  6. 21 May '11 23:33 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Boxing etc are sports that are far removed from their fighting origins. The TKD guys that fight in UFC are clueless about real fighting. They're sportsmen.

    Learn the TKD Horse Stance and Judo folks will have a hard time fighting you.

    Ground grappling is good for a duel but Karate and Tae Kwon Do emphasize dropping the oth Korean military is probably pretty practical. You can kick while holding a rifle or staff...
    Sorry, but that horse stance won't do a thing against an experienced Judo guy. That video you posted shows it's strong against side-to-side off ballancing attempts. Well no doodoo! It's a wide, square stance - which means the off ballance points would be to the front and back. Let me stand directly in front of her and then push her. See how easily she falls back. There is NO stance that is impervious to being taken down or thrown.

    As for your claims about Karate and Tae Kwan Do, I would have to see it to believe it. Traditional martial artists have already been imported from all over the world, and they get pwned almost every time by MMA fighters. Striking sports that train full, repeated contact like Muay Thai and boxing are where it's at.
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    22 May '11 00:01 / 3 edits
    Well you switch stances as the Judoka shifts around your body. But I'm no fighting expert. Not even close.

    Back in the 60's Kyokushin fighters beat Thai boxers in challenge duels.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKypFdtHH0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoBiueeRpiI
  8. 22 May '11 00:18
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Well you switch stances as the Judoka shifts around your body. But I'm no fighting expert. Not even close.

    Back in the 60's Kyokushin fighters beat Thai boxers in challenge duels.
    The whole switching stances thing is one dynamic of a Judo match. Both competitors are trying to off ballance their opponent while trying not to be taken off ballance themselves.

    I have no doubt if the girl in that video has no Judo and went up against a Judo master, she would get lots and lots of air time.

    Check out this compilation from various Judo competitions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be-BoM-WokY
  9. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    22 May '11 00:26
    I began practicing judo when I was 10 and continued until I was 16, when I moved to a place without a club. I got back into about 5 years ago, this time with my wife and daughter. Definitely, very useful for self-defense.

    I've also been doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for about four years. A lot of fights end up on the ground. Knowing how to get up quickly when some one is on top of you or knowing how to sweep them and take top position yourself (so that you can beat them up, or probably more realistically, run away) is a very valuable skill.

    The two work very well together. At BJJ competitions I almost always throw my opponent quickly and get some sort of top position (I go on to win or lose from there, but it's nice to start with an advantage). In judo, my BJJ skills mean that I don't get caught in chokes or armbars, and I usually get a few in myself (judo competitions don't allow much time for groundwork or I'd get more).

    Finally, I've done a little Muay Thai (just enough to know that I really shouldn't stand and trade in a fight).

    Most underrated MA: Wrestling.
  10. Standard member telerion
    True X X Xian
    22 May '11 00:27
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    The whole switching stances thing is one dynamic of a Judo match. Both competitors are trying to off ballance their opponent while trying not to be taken off ballance themselves.

    I have no doubt if the girl in that video has no Judo and went up against a Judo master, she would get lots and lots of air time.

    Check out this compilation from various Judo competitions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be-BoM-WokY
    Yep. And if all one had to do was take a strong, defensive stance to avoid being thrown, judo would be a very boring sport indeed.
  11. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    22 May '11 00:28
    Those are clips of the dramatic finishing moves. We could put together a montage of taekwondo flying kicks to the head too.
  12. 22 May '11 00:37
    Originally posted by telerion
    I began practicing judo when I was 10 and continued until I was 16, when I moved to a place without a club. I got back into about 5 years ago, this time with my wife and daughter. Definitely, very useful for self-defense.

    I've also been doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for about four years. A lot of fights end up on the ground. Knowing how to get up quickl ...[text shortened]... w that I really shouldn't stand and trade in a fight).

    Most underrated MA: Wrestling.
    Nice background!

    Today I threw my first unwilling opponent (we were sparring). I was pretty proud because the kid is a brown belt. But at the same time, he's 17 and I outweigh him by about 40 pounds.

    I also noticed there are two types of Judo guys. Those who progress through the belts by "testing" - learning and demonstrating the teqniques. Then there are the guys who compete on a regular basis and get way more hard-nosed experience. I can always tell a difference when I'm practicing against one.

    The instructors in the school are really big on testing and "promoting" people. But before I agree to test for my first belt I want to enter a competition. If I can reasonably hang with yellow belts at tornaments, then I'm OK with receiving mine.
  13. 22 May '11 00:44
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Those are clips of the dramatic finishing moves. We could put together a montage of taekwondo flying kicks to the head too.
    The video wasn't meant to show Judo is better than Taekwando. I do think Judo is much more practical for self defense, but again that wasn't the point of the video.
  14. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    22 May '11 12:43
    I don't know about any of you, but I'd much prefer to fight a karate master than Mike Tyson; anyday.

    I mean the karate master might beat me up, but Tyson's going to beat me up, chew off my ear and rape me.

    No sirree, thank you very much.
  15. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    22 May '11 18:00
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

    He was involved in competitive fights, some of which were arranged while others were not. Dan Inosanto stated, "There's no doubt in my mind that if Bruce Lee had gone into pro boxing, he could easily have ranked in the top three in the lightweight division or junior-welterweight division".[38]

    Lee defeated three-time champion British boxer Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships by using Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[39]

    The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result".[40] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 pm on Wednesday, 29 April 1959.[41]

    In 1962, Lee knocked out Uechi, a Japanese black belt Karateka, in 11 seconds in a 1962 Full-Contact match in Seattle. It was refereed by Jesse Glover. The incident took place in Seattle at a YMCA handball court. Taki Kamura says the battle lasted 10 seconds in contrary to Hart's statement.[42] Ed Hart states "The karate man arrived in his gi (uniform), complete with black belt, while Bruce showed up in his street clothes and simply took off his shoes. The fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him".[43]

    In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and Tai chi chuan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese; when he refused to comply he was challenged to a combat match with Wong, the arrangement being that if Lee lost he would have to shut down his school while if he won then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[40] Wong denies this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[44] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[45]

    Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation) and William Chen, a teacher of Tai chi chuan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[44] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Bruce. "The fight ensued, it was a no holds barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up". — Linda Lee Cadwell[40]

    Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[44] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

    Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

    One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[46]
    Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter". Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "damned good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[47]

    This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[48] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly". — Bob Wall[49]