Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. SubscriberPonderableonline
    chemist
    Linkenheim
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    16 Jan '19 07:56
    @velns said
    In reality there is no such thing as “hard” Brexit, or a soft Brexit; there is only hard and soft negotiation. There is well ‘prepared’ Brexit and there is poorly or ‘unprepared’ Brexit. If one is ‘prepared’ then one is not beholden and therefore one is in a position to hard negotiate. The UK’s problem is not “brexit” it is one of preparedness to hard negotiate.

    To be able ...[text shortened]... unpalatable to the power-brokers who are really pulling the strings.

    It’s all very interesting.
    I agree in principle, you should know your BATNA (Best alternative to negotiated Agreement) before siting on the table.

    Britain hadn't and has messed up royally.

    Now there is no time, and I think Britain should just go now and sleep in the bed they made.

    In fact Farage and Johnson should step up now and Show the world how the reap the "Brexit-dividend".
  2. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
    A Spirited Misfit
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    16 Jan '19 12:43
    @shavixmir said
    A hard brexit has to be explained. The reality of that is so stupid, only the mad would choose it over anything else.

    If there are no trade deals with the EU set in place, what happens?
    WTO guidelines is what happens.
    Unless you have trade agreements, you (in this case the EU) have to treat every country exactly the same. So no benefits, equal import taxation, etc.
    4 ...[text shortened]... d indeed dash my predictions on it. It’s just so mental that nobody would really actually choose it.
    "This will essentially cripple the UK economy and hamper the EU economy."

    I think you inadvertently mixed those two things up. A hard Brexit wasn't my first choice, but I'm cool with it. (And have all my marbles in place).
  3. SubscriberWOLFE63
    Tra il dire e il far
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    16 Jan '19 13:02
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/02/16/robert-mueller-investigation-what-russian-troll-farm/346159002/

    Lest we forget the possibility that the Brexit vote may have been influenced by the russians.
    As clearly demonstrated in the United States; the russian troll-farms have performed their putin-directed, propaganda-misinformation campaigns, rather competently.
    However, they are yet to harvest any significant "blow-back"... but, rest assured: It's in the works.
  4. SubscriberProper Knob
    Cornovii
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    16 Jan '19 13:38
    Strong & stable.
  5. Subscribermoonbus
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    16 Jan '19 13:50
    @wolfe63 said
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2018/02/16/robert-mueller-investigation-what-russian-troll-farm/346159002/

    Lest we forget the possibility that the Brexit vote may have been influenced by the russians.
    As clearly demonstrated in the United States; the russian troll-farms have performed their putin-directed, propaganda-misinformation campaigns, rather competently. ...[text shortened]... owever, they are yet to harvest any significant "blow-back"... but, rest assured: It's in the works.
    Putin wants and hopes to regain for Russia some of the clout which the USSR once had when it was still a super power and lost. This he hopes to accomplish not only by building up Russia’s political and diplomatic might, but also by weakening the political and diplomatic might of Russia’s rivals on the world stage.

    As far as Putin is concerned, the Cold War never ended: he is pursuing it by other means now, which include disrupting democratic processes and fomenting division in the USA, UK, and Germany. Putin would like nothing better than to see the EU disintegrate into a heap of squabbling separatist nationalist far-right xenophobic states, and Brexit is a step in that direction.

    Trump is either a complete fool if he thinks Putin’s Russia is the ally of the West, or he is beholden to Russian interests and their lackey.
  6. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    16 Jan '19 15:39
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    "This will essentially cripple the UK economy and hamper the EU economy."

    I think you inadvertently mixed those two things up. A hard Brexit wasn't my first choice, but I'm cool with it. (And have all my marbles in place).
    No. I think I got it right and that you’re proving my point.
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Jan '19 16:08
    @shavixmir said
    No. I think I got it right and that you’re proving my point.
    The only thing you've proven sir is that you really shouldn't post about Brexit. Your views are riddled with cliches and discombobulations.
  8. Joined
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    16 Jan '19 16:29
    @moonbus said
    Putin wants and hopes to regain for Russia some of the clout which the USSR once had when it was still a super power and lost. This he hopes to accomplish not only by building up Russia’s political and diplomatic might, but also by weakening the political and diplomatic might of Russia’s rivals on the world stage.

    As far as Putin is concerned, the Cold War never ended: h ...[text shortened]... nks Putin’s Russia is the ally of the West, or he is beholden to Russian interests and their lackey.
    “As far as Putin is concerned, the Cold War never ended: he is pursuing it by other means now, which include disrupting democratic processes and fomenting division in the USA, UK, and Germany. Putin would like nothing better than to see the EU disintegrate into a heap of squabbling separatist nationalist far-right xenophobic states, and Brexit is a step in that direction.”

    Well said. I have an aversion to conspiracy theories but I am coming to the same conclusion. We may be seeing these experiments in democracy put to their biggest test.
  9. Joined
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    16 Jan '19 18:201 edit
    @suzianne said
    Hey, whodey, I know you think you can tell everyone what to do, but for the love of God, leave them alone. Let them fight it out among themselves. It's their country, not yours.
    I see, so they can come over here and tell us who to vote for and to embrace government run health care but I can't talk about Brexit?

    Of course, I realize that free speech for Leftists is only a one way street. Like voting, only certain kinds are welcome while all others need to either be shouted down or censored on Twitter or Facebook, etc.
  10. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
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    16 Jan '19 18:27
    @whodey said
    A democratic socialist is all about democracy, until it steps on their toes. Then all of a sudden, they either need a recount or a revote, or they just need better educated.
    You think there is something wrong with British democracy?
    Tell us about it (but do some research first.)
  11. Standard membershavixmir
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    16 Jan '19 18:42
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    The only thing you've proven sir is that you really shouldn't post about Brexit. Your views are riddled with cliches and discombobulations.
    Yeah. Says you, Boris, Mogg and UKIP.

    What I say is wrong?
    Oh, pray tell us, what happens with a hard brexit? Go on.
    Let’s hear what you think of the WTO rules and where I get them wrong.

    Let’s hear how UK flights are not going to be affected.

    Go on. Blind us with your wisdom.
  12. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Jan '19 19:57
    @shavixmir said
    Yeah. Says you, Boris, Mogg and UKIP.

    What I say is wrong?
    Oh, pray tell us, what happens with a hard brexit? Go on.
    Let’s hear what you think of the WTO rules and where I get them wrong.

    Let’s hear how UK flights are not going to be affected.

    Go on. Blind us with your wisdom.
    I have no affinity with Boris, Mogg or UKIP.

    The UK has nothing to fear of a 'managed' Brexit. A 'hard' (for want of a better term) Brexit has nothing to do with 'a jump into the abyss' or 'crashing out of the EU' as many are claiming. Nobody wants a 'no deal' and something will be put in place at the final hurrah to minimize the impact on all parties. That's simply the way the EU conducts its business.

    The stars aren't going to fallen from the heavens.
  13. Joined
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    16 Jan '19 21:33
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    I have no affinity with Boris, Mogg or UKIP.

    The UK has nothing to fear of a 'managed' Brexit. A 'hard' (for want of a better term) Brexit has nothing to do with 'a jump into the abyss' or 'crashing out of the EU' as many are claiming. Nobody wants a 'no deal' and something will be put in place at the final hurrah to minimize the impact on all parties. That's simply the way the EU conducts its business.

    The stars aren't going to fallen from the heavens.
    You may consider that you have no 'affinity' with them, but you agree with them, which is the important thing, is it not? The rest is just semantics.

    We know that you subscribe to the 'It'll be alright on the night' school of thought, and that the magic rabbit will be pulled from the hat, but where are the answers to the Irish border question, or exiting without the pound dropping like a rock, or England and Scotland becoming further divided? Theresa May has been trying for months to broker a deal, and so has the rest of the EU, and the best that they have come up with has been roundly rejected, so as our first poster has asked, where to from here? Where is the 'managed 'Brexit'?
    There are people who will accept a 'no deal' exit, regardless of the consequences, and they have a right to do so, although I think a recount of their 'marbles' would be a good idea.
    And the stars may indeed not fall from the heavens, but such extreme and emotive language really isn't helpful; there are far lesser fates that may befall a nation which will nevertheless have a profoundly negative effect on its' people.

    I believe in a united Europe, and that Britain should be a part of it, and if this is not to be then so be it, but after two + years we seem to be little closer to minimizing impacts, simple though this may be.
  14. Standard membershavixmir
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    17 Jan '19 05:09
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    I have no affinity with Boris, Mogg or UKIP.

    The UK has nothing to fear of a 'managed' Brexit. A 'hard' (for want of a better term) Brexit has nothing to do with 'a jump into the abyss' or 'crashing out of the EU' as many are claiming. Nobody wants a 'no deal' and something will be put in place at the final hurrah to minimize the impact on all parties. That's simply the way the EU conducts its business.

    The stars aren't going to fallen from the heavens.
    You are correct. I’m on about a no deal brexit.
    As my post makes perfectly clear in all but calling it hard, instead of no deal.

    But, yes, a hard brexit (if that means completely managed) is a possibility.
    Not a very likely or manegable one, but at least one that won’t resort to complete madness.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Jan '19 06:19
    @js357 said
    “As far as Putin is concerned, the Cold War never ended: he is pursuing it by other means now, which include disrupting democratic processes and fomenting division in the USA, UK, and Germany. Putin would like nothing better than to see the EU disintegrate into a heap of squabbling separatist nationalist far-right xenophobic states, and Brexit is a step in that direction.”

    W ...[text shortened]... g to the same conclusion. We may be seeing these experiments in democracy put to their biggest test.
    Did the Cold War ever end for the West? Their governments aggressively pushed NATO east even after its raison d'etre had ceased to be, waged a war to divide Yugoslavia and humiliate Russia's Serbian ally, supported an illegal coup against the Ukrainian government because it preferred stronger economic ties to Russia and on and on.

    None of that excuses Putin's actions and/or Trump's puzzling support for him, but the road here travels in both directions.
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