Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    17 Jan '19 09:26
    @indonesia-phil said
    You may consider that you have no 'affinity' with them, but you agree with them, which is the important thing, is it not? The rest is just semantics.

    We know that you subscribe to the 'It'll be alright on the night' school of thought, and that the magic rabbit will be pulled from the hat, but where are the answers to the Irish border question, or exiting without the ...[text shortened]... but after two + years we seem to be little closer to minimizing impacts, simple though this may be.
    'Agreed' in as much as I voted to leave, but viewing both Boris and Mogg as comical figures (driven by self-interest) and UKIP as a party of vagabonds and scallywags, there is no affinity there in any meaningful sense. My affinity is with my fellow Brits who have had enough of the EU and simply want to have an amicable separation with as minimal damage to all parties concerned. I think a 'managed' Brexit is not only possible but the most likely scenario as we edge nearer to March.

    It's not a case of crossing my fingers and kidding myself that 'It'll be alright on the night' but having the genuine belief that as the final hour approaches some interim measures will be put in place to prevent things grinding to a halt. Why is this? Because when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, 'nobody' wants a 'bad' Brexit. It serves no one. All would suffer.

    Personally, when I voted for Brexit, I knew there would be turbulent days before we reaped the benefits. Such is the nature of change. We will still look back in a few years time and be glad we got out when we did. (Though I genuinely hope the EU itself survives the big waves that are coming its way).
  2. Subscribermoonbus
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    17 Jan '19 10:58
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    'Agreed' in as much as I voted to leave, but viewing both Boris and Mogg as comical figures (driven by self-interest) and UKIP as a party of vagabonds and scallywags, there is no affinity there in any meaningful sense. My affinity is with my fellow Brits who have had enough of the EU and simply want to have an amicable separation with as minimal damage to all parties ...[text shortened]... when we did. (Though I genuinely hope the EU itself survives the big waves that are coming its way).
    Just to give you an idea how complicated it is to get dis-engaged from the EU:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46896530

    Now apply that across the board to driving licenses, airlines, ferry traffic, financial services (where the UK has been traditionally very much dependent on EU customers), etc. etc.

    Unilaterally opting out ignores the fact that all borders, including virtual ones, involve at least one other party on the other side of the same border.

    The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.
  3. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    17 Jan '19 11:102 edits
    @no1marauder said
    Did the Cold War ever end for the West? Their governments aggressively pushed NATO east even after its raison d'etre had ceased to be, waged a war to divide Yugoslavia and humiliate Russia's Serbian ally, supported an illegal coup against the Ukrainian government because it preferred stronger economic ties to Russia and on and on.

    None of that excuses Putin's actions and/or Trump's puzzling support for him, but the road here travels in both directions.
    "Did the Cold War ever end for the West? Their governments aggressively pushed NATO east even after its raison d'etre had ceased to be, waged a war to divide Yugoslavia and humiliate Russia's Serbian ally, supported an illegal coup against the Ukrainian government because it preferred stronger economic ties to Russia and on and on."
    - N1M


    You appear to be propagating russian talking points with that post.

    Before and after the USSR had collapsed; former "eastern bloc" nations (like Poland) pushed very hard for their independence and consequent shelter under the NATO umbrella.

    Additionally, there was little pity in the west for Serbia. Serbia was guilty of territorial avarice in Bosnia. It looked the other way while Serbian civilians and soldiers raped their way through Bosnia's Muslim population.

    This is not the first time that I've noticed you twisting history to suit.
  4. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    17 Jan '19 12:23
    @moonbus said
    Just to give you an idea how complicated it is to get dis-engaged from the EU:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46896530

    Now apply that across the board to driving licenses, airlines, ferry traffic, financial services (where the UK has been traditionally very much dependent on EU customers), etc. etc.

    Unilaterally opting out ignores the fact that all borders, inc ...[text shortened]... er party on the other side of the same border.

    The UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.
    There is a need on both sides for cooperation. It is this mutual need that will prevent catastrophe and ensure a managed Brexit. (Unfortunately the EU will only fully appreciate this in the final hours. This is just the way they operate and an additional reason why we will be better off outside than in).
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Jan '19 12:46
    @wolfe63 said
    "Did the Cold War ever end for the West? Their governments aggressively pushed NATO east even after its raison d'etre had ceased to be, waged a war to divide Yugoslavia and humiliate Russia's Serbian ally, supported an illegal coup against the Ukrainian government because it preferred stronger economic ties to Russia and on and on."
    - N1M


    You appear to be propagating r ...[text shortened]... a's Muslim population.

    This is not the first time that I've noticed you twisting history to suit.
    The Neo-Con "White Hat, Black Hat" version of history always makes for an amusing read.

    The dissolution of the USSR made NATO, an organization formed to defend against feared Communist aggression, superfluous. Its expansion into Eastern Europe anyway when Russia was expecting rapprochement with the West was needlessly provocative and virtually certain to trigger the Russian nationalist backlash it did.

    Not content with that. NATO had to alter its charter in order to intervene militarily in the civil wars in Yugoslavia. Apparently Serbs are not entitled to self-determination like other groups; they were ethnically cleansed from Croatia (by a German equipped army) and forced to accept incorporation of their majority areas into Bosnia. Both these wars were nasty and there were certainly war crimes committed by Serbian forces but war crime tribunals have convicted Croatians and Bosnians as well. I know that fact is inconvenient for your simplistic narrative but sometimes fair minded assessments require more than mere acceptance of one sided propaganda.
  6. Subscribermoonbus
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    17 Jan '19 13:18
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    There is a need on both sides for cooperation. It is this mutual need that will prevent catastrophe and ensure a managed Brexit. (Unfortunately the EU will only fully appreciate this in the final hours. This is just the way they operate and an additional reason why we will be better off outside than in).
    Given that Th. May cannot get consensus even within her own party, the lack of willingness to cooperate looks decidedly one-sided.
  7. Germany
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    17 Jan '19 16:04
    @no1marauder said
    The Neo-Con "White Hat, Black Hat" version of history always makes for an amusing read.

    The dissolution of the USSR made NATO, an organization formed to defend against feared Communist aggression, superfluous. Its expansion into Eastern Europe anyway when Russia was expecting rapprochement with the West was needlessly provocative and virtually certain to trigger the Ru ...[text shortened]... ive but sometimes fair minded assessments require more than mere acceptance of one sided propaganda.
    Putin himself is largely the consequence of the West's policies vis-à-vis Russia. After communism fell, the IMF stood ready with generous loans for former Soviet bloc countries, to help them make the transition to a market economy. While there were some hiccups, certainly, the transition was successfully made and most of the former Warschaupact members have experienced strong economic growth in the past two decades. Russia was a completely different story, and American leadership stood by, snickering, while Yeltsin was hungover in his Kremlin office and oligarchs were looting the country, setting the stage for an authoritarian figure to come to the rescue.
  8. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    17 Jan '19 16:19
    @moonbus said
    Given that Th. May cannot get consensus even within her own party, the lack of willingness to cooperate looks decidedly one-sided.
    That will all change sir when the end is nigh.

    Let us hold our nerve and remember the words of C.S Lewis, 'There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind.'
  9. Green Boots Cave
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    18 Jan '19 16:07
    An interesting commentary By Markus Becker in the English edition of Spiegel Online.
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/may-s-brexit-debacle-britain-finally-confronts-reality-a-1248408.html
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    18 Jan '19 21:42
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    'Agreed' in as much as I voted to leave, but viewing both Boris and Mogg as comical figures (driven by self-interest) and UKIP as a party of vagabonds and scallywags, there is no affinity there in any meaningful sense. My affinity is with my fellow Brits who have had enough of the EU and simply want to have an amicable separation with as minimal damage to all parties ...[text shortened]... when we did. (Though I genuinely hope the EU itself survives the big waves that are coming its way).
    Yes, it's interesting ain't it; I would stand fore - square beside anyone who voted to remain, be they Peer of the Realm or dustman. On your side sits all the low - life, a manifestation of the great unenlightened, the racist underbelly of the nation which cuts through all classes has raised its' ugly head. I'm not throwing specific accusations of racism around, and certainly not at your good self, but you surely have to concede that the 'I don't don't like the French' (for example) factor has played its' significant and insidious part in all of this.
    And the problem is, of course, that if 'Brexit' does go bad then everyone who voted leave gets tarred with the same 'Brexit', and everyone who voted for it will share equal responsibility.
    Further, I have never understood how a 'managed 'Brexit'' would deal with the Irish border question. If we leave then there has to be a border, and anyone with any compassion who remembers 'the troubles', with all the misery which that brought to people's lives on both sides of the great divide will not want to see that happen, I'm sure, so what's the answer, now that the 'backdrop' has been rejected? And how do you 'manage' a lack of trade - deals? How do you stop the pound falling; I've read that in a bad scenario the pound could even drop to the level of the Euro, now wouldn't that be ironic? One cannot 'manage' the resentment which would exist in Scotland, who as a body wanted none of this.
    I don't want a bad 'Brexit' either, and I hope we all come out smelling of English roses, but the way things stand I don't share your optimism.
    We can't seem to get an agreement which is acceptable to anybody, so aside from a hard 'Brexit' I don't see what alternatives lay before us, aside from rejecting the whole nonsense in another referendum or going back to where we were; a relatively prosperous country within a closely allied group of trading nations, which is not perfect, but what is, and we'll never change it if we aren't in it.
    And sorry, you know, but I'm between novels so I've got nothing better to do than to write this stuff, which is my stuff, nonetheless. Whatever happens I'll be alright (Jack), as I'm sure will you, but that's not really the point, is it?
  11. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    19 Jan '19 09:25
    @indonesia-phil said
    Yes, it's interesting ain't it; I would stand fore - square beside anyone who voted to remain, be they Peer of the Realm or dustman. On your side sits all the low - life, a manifestation of the great unenlightened, the racist underbelly of the nation which cuts through all classes has raised its' ugly head. I'm not throwing specific accusations of racism around, and ce ...[text shortened]... atever happens I'll be alright (Jack), as I'm sure will you, but that's not really the point, is it?
    You're a scary chap when you're between novels.

    Will come back to some of your points later today and attempt to bring you over to the dark side.
  12. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    19 Jan '19 20:08
    @indonesia-phil said
    Yes, it's interesting ain't it; I would stand fore - square beside anyone who voted to remain, be they Peer of the Realm or dustman. On your side sits all the low - life, a manifestation of the great unenlightened, the racist underbelly of the nation which cuts through all classes has raised its' ugly head. I'm not throwing specific accusations of racism around, and ce ...[text shortened]... atever happens I'll be alright (Jack), as I'm sure will you, but that's not really the point, is it?
    Okay sir, first we need to tackle head on the urban myth that the degenerates of the UK formed the significant part of the 'Leavers' while all the 'Remainers' went home after voting to donate to various charities and polish their halos. Believe me, 'low lifes' (as you put it) exist on both sides of the fence and I know personally one or two Remainers who voted so for purely self-serving reasons and would readily have voted leave if that were to their financial advantage. You say you would stand fore-square bedside anyone who voted to remain, and yet still run the risk sir of having your wallet pilfered.

    Alas, I am not able to give a definitive solution to the Irish border question but again highlight the pertinent fact that 'nobody' wants a hard border and that this will never happen 'whatever' the final outcome is of Brexit. Technology will no doubt save the day and some interim arrangements agreed while this is implemented. - Brexit will free us up to make new trade deals and remove the shackles of the EU. And yes the pound will probably fall in the short term, before rising like a phoenix in the years ahead.

    Keep calm and carry on.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    19 Jan '19 20:16
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Okay sir, first we need to tackle head on the urban myth that the degenerates of the UK formed the significant part of the 'Leavers' while all the 'Remainers' went home after voting to donate to various charities and polish their halos. Believe me, 'low lifes' (as you put it) exist on both sides of the fence and I know personally one or two Remainers who voted so for ...[text shortened]... fall in the short term, before rising like a phoenix in the years ahead.

    Keep calm and carry on.
    I can easily think of a "definitive solution to the Irish border question".
  14. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    19 Jan '19 20:29
    @no1marauder said
    I can easily think of a "definitive solution to the Irish border question".
    Will I like it?
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Will I like it?
    Probably not since it would reduce the size of your little empire.
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