Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
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    02 Sep '18 10:59
    A second referendum would betray democracy as much as the first.

    Elected MPs are there to make the make the difficult decisions,
    when the cannot and pass the buck to the electorate you get ...
    CHAOS

    The argument for a second referendum is surely as strong as the argument for the first.
    And at least people would be better informed for the second!




    ........................ but what about the third?????????????
  2. Germany
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    02 Sep '18 11:14
    Originally posted by @wajoma
    Burearats elected by other bureaurats.

    KN Logic 🙄
    From 22 to 25 May 2014, elections to the European Parliament were held in the European Union.

    It was the 8th parliamentary election since the first direct elections in 1979, and the first in which the European political parties fielded candidates for President of the Commission.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014
  3. Germany
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    02 Sep '18 11:22
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    The first referendum was a liberation, not a betrayal. These 'ordinary Britons' you speak of were given a 'vote' a 'choice.' Yes, there were exaggerations on both sides, but it was the British people themselves who voted for Brexit and it is now the government's duty to ensure this democratic decision by the people is implemented. Had the majority v ...[text shortened]... separation is never going to be easy at first, but the future offers exciting new opportunities.
    The short-term gain I mentioned was the Tories' strategy to nibble at Ukip's support by promising a referendum.
  4. Stargazing
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    02 Sep '18 12:431 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59

    ........................ but what about the third?????????????
    I’m up for a 2nd as long we can hold a 3rd if we don’t like the outcome and consequences of the 2nd.
  5. Stargazing
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    02 Sep '18 12:473 edits
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    Elected MPs are there to make the make the difficult decisions,
    when the cannot and pass the buck to the electorate you get ...
    chaos
    If it’s “chaos” now, then how will people be better informed?

    More likely the hope is that scaring the living shlt out of people will cause the ill informed floating % to bottle it and change their mind. Which is exactly what’s going on in some elements of the media.

    I’m not for turning, never, no way, not happening.
    Never never never never give up.

    There are a couple of catch phrases to give the leftie globalists some sweaty anger...
  6. Stargazing
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    02 Sep '18 12:48
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    Elected MPs are there to make the make the difficult decisions,
    when the cannot and pass the buck to the electorate you get ...
    CHAOS
    Like David Cameron?

    Like John Major?

    Crazy stuff.
  7. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    02 Sep '18 13:12
    If anyone recollects the referendum, it was literally chock full of people on the left and right all saying this will be binding, even though it does not have the legal power to be binding, the government will totally act in accordance with what the people want, etc., and many emphasized that this is the once in a generation vote on the topic, implying that there COULD be no second vote for literally a decade or two...

    In a sense, it was much like the Scottish referendum for breaking away.

    Everyone was completely satisfied with these grounds.

    President Obama literally came over to campaign against it.

    ... And ... you don't like the results... so now we are talking about how it is rational and fine to ahve a second vote on it.

    Not cool.
  8. Germany
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    02 Sep '18 13:54
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    If anyone recollects the referendum, it was literally chock full of people on the left and right all saying this will be binding, even though it does not have the legal power to be binding, the government will totally act in accordance with what the people want, etc., and many emphasized that [i]this is the once in a generation vote on the ...[text shortened]... now we are talking about how it is rational and fine to ahve a second vote on it.

    Not cool.
    It's not the case that "everyone" was fine with this referendum being binding. For example, I wasn't.
  9. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
    A Spirited Misfit
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    02 Sep '18 14:07
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    The short-term gain I mentioned was the Tories' strategy to nibble at Ukip's support by promising a referendum.
    The referendum had far more to do with inflexible EU bureaucrats who pushed Cameron into a corner he had no personal desire to enter. Leeching Ukips support was merely a happy byproduct.

    The first referendum was the antithesis of betrayal, a second would be its actualization.
  10. Joined
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    02 Sep '18 14:55
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    The first referendum was a betrayal of ordinary Britons, who will pay the price for cynical political games played for short-term gain.
    I would really like to know what exactly this price we are going to pay is/was. Can you tell me?


    ...




    Ohhhh that's right, there hasn't been any, has there? Of course there hasn't. Anyone who was clever enough to see that politicians have an interest in maintaining their EU pensions (how many in the House of Lords have been bought out?) could see straight through Remainer lies. The recession worse than 2009, 3 million lost jobs, unprecedented austerity, the exodus of banks... it sounds as ridiculous now as it did to me in the months leading up the referendum in 2016. Why? Because the EU isn't a vehicle of prosperity and it has never been, except in the case of Germany (who controls it). Actually, the EU has destroyed Southern Europe.

    Instead, Britain grew close to 2% in 2016 and '17. Unemployment is at a record low. Our trade deficit is falling and we posted a budget surplus for the first time in a while. This has all been very embarrassing for ignorant remainers (and for Brussels, who loves to pretend that you cannot succeed without them despite the fact that non-European countries prove otherwise), many of whom probably wish a recession upon us so that they can feel vindicated.
  11. Joined
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    02 Sep '18 14:571 edit
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    The short-term gain I mentioned was the Tories' strategy to nibble at Ukip's support by promising a referendum.
    Guess who was behind the stitch-ups that left Cameron out in the cold, with none of the reforms he hoped would stop Brexit? Our good friend Martin Selmayr.
  12. Joined
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    02 Sep '18 15:112 edits
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    I think you're trying way too hard to fit everyone under your little comedy umbrella.

    Calling Brexiteers "racist" is a bit of a stretch.

    Nationalists, maybe, stupid, maybe, shooting-themselves-in-the-foot, definitely, but racist? Not so much.
    Calling Brexiteers "racist" is a bit of a stretch.

    Racist against.... other white people? It was never going to cut it. Many immigrants from Commonwealth countries (most of whom are non-white) questioned why EU citizens (many of whom are completely untalented) have an automatic right to live in the UK ahead of them (who have far closer ties to Britain because of colonization), when the only thing that most Europeans have in common with British people is also being white. About the only people of colour amongst the whole 750 odd people in the EU parliament are British. It's already something like 99% white as it as (even though Britain, for example, is only about 85% white). It'll be basically 100% white when Britain leaves. Aside from Ireland, no other European country should have preferential treatment.


    Nationalists, maybe, stupid, maybe, shooting-themselves-in-the-foot, definitely, but racist? Not so much.

    I have to ask you, do you really think you know a whole lot of the history around this subject? Do you think you have an adequate enough understanding of European politics to lecture British voters?
  13. Joined
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    02 Sep '18 15:31
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    Too much common sense for KN’s rose-tinted no more borders, countries or national identities ideological farm.
    "The EU is a classic utopian project - a monument to the vanity of intellectuals. It is a program whose inevitable destiny is failure."

    --- Margaret Thatcher

    KN has an absurdly idealized view of the world in general and has mentioned several of his dreamy ideas (like one language for the whole world, that we should do away with all immigration policy, etc). Those who live in the real world and who seek real solutions rather than 1960's/70's fanfiction know better.
  14. Germany
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    02 Sep '18 16:54
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    "The EU is a classic utopian project - a monument to the vanity of intellectuals. It is a program whose inevitable destiny is failure."

    --- Margaret Thatcher

    KN has an absurdly idealized view of the world in general and has mentioned several of his dreamy ideas (like one language for the whole world, that we should do away with all immigration polic ...[text shortened]... ve in the real world and who seek real solutions rather than 1960's/70's fanfiction know better.
    There should be a worldwide lingua franca, which to a large degree English already is.

    I didn't say there should be no migration policy, just that it shouldn't be based on discrimination by citizenship.
  15. Germany
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    02 Sep '18 16:58
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    I would really like to know what exactly this price we are going to pay is/was. Can you tell me?


    ...




    Ohhhh that's right, there hasn't been any, has there? Of course there hasn't. Anyone who was clever enough to see that politicians have an interest in maintaining their EU pensions (how many in the House of Lords have been bought out?) could ...[text shortened]... ove otherwise), many of whom probably wish a recession upon us so that they can feel vindicated.
    The price will be a contraction of the U.K. economy by something on the order of a few percent. Not dramatic by any means, but also totally unnecessary.
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