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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    18 Jun '15 17:393 edits
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/18/obama-after-charleston-shooting-america-has-to-reckon-with-the-fact-that-this-type-of-mass-violence-doesnt-happen-in-other-advanced-countries/

    President Barack Obama expressed sorrow and anger the morning after a gunmen fatally shot nine people at a South Carolina church, and said it’s time for the nation to “reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence doesn’t happen in other advanced countries.”

    Really Mr. President? What about?

    •Zug, Switzerland, Sept. 27, 2001: A man whose lawsuits had been denied murdered 14 members of a cantonal parliament.
    •Tours, France, Oct. 29, 2001: Four people were killed and ten wounded when a French railway worker started shooting at a busy intersection.
    •Nanterre, France, March 27, 2002: A man killed eight city-council members after a council meeting.
    •Erfurt, Germany, April 26, 2002: A former student killed 18 at a secondary school.
    •Freising, Germany, Feb. 19, 2002: Three people killed and one wounded.
    •Turin, Italy, Oct. 15, 2002: Seven people killed on a hillside overlooking the city.
    •Madrid, Spain, Oct. 1, 2006: A man killed two employees and wounded another at a company that had fired him.
    •Emsdetten, Germany, Nov. 20, 2006: A former student murdered eleven people at a high school.
    •Tuusula, Finland, Nov. 7, 2007: Seven students and the principal killed at a high school.
    •Naples, Italy, Sept. 18, 2008: Seven dead and two seriously wounded in a public meeting hall. (This incident is not included in the totals given below because it may have involved the Mafia.)
    •Kauhajoki, Finland, Sept. 23, 2008: Ten people shot to death at a college.
    •Winnenden, Germany, March 11, 2009: A 17-year-old former student killed 15 people, including nine students and three teachers.
    •Lyon, France, March 19, 2009: Ten people injured when a man opened fire on a nursery school.
    •Athens, Greece, April 10, 2009: Three people killed and two injured by a student at a vocational college.
    •Rotterdam, Netherlands, April 11, 2009: Three people killed and one injured at a crowded café.
    •Vienna, Austria, May 24, 2009: One dead and 15 wounded in an attack on a Sikh temple.
    •Espoo, Finland, Dec. 31, 2009: Four people shot to death at a mall.
    •Cumbria, England, June 2, 2010: Twelve killed by a British taxi driver.

    Never mind the genocide in Armenia, Nazi Germany, and the former Yugoslavia.
  2. SubscriberGhost of a Dukeonline
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    18 Jun '15 17:551 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    President Barack Obama expressed sorrow and anger the morning after a gunmen fatally shot nine people at a South Carolina church, and said it’s time for the nation to “reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence doesn’t happen in other advanced countries.”

    Really Mr. President? What about?

    •Zug, Switzerland, Sept. 27, 2001: A man whose lawsuits h ...[text shortened]... ish taxi driver.

    Never mind the genocide in Armenia, Nazi Germany, and the former Yugoslavia.[/b]
    He goes on to say "... It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency" which rather negates your whole post and is the reason of course you didn't post it.

    Yes, mass violence happens in other countries, but it is the frequency of it happening in America that he said needed addressing.

    *Edit. - My thoughts are with the families of those who lost their lives.
  3. Standard membersh76
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    18 Jun '15 19:59
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/18/obama-after-charleston-shooting-america-has-to-reckon-with-the-fact-that-this-type-of-mass-violence-doesnt-happen-in-other-advanced-countries/

    President Barack Obama expressed sorrow and anger the morning after a gunmen fatally shot nine people at a South Carolina church, and said it’s time for the nation to “reck ...[text shortened]... ish taxi driver.

    Never mind the genocide in Armenia, Nazi Germany, and the former Yugoslavia.
    Cherry picking incidents from the past decade + doesn't help.

    Mass gun violence happens too often here and to deny it is just plain daft.

    Making it so easy for these hateful nuts to get their hands on assault weapons is insane.

    This incident makes me sick.
  4. The Catbird's Seat
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    18 Jun '15 20:09
    Originally posted by sh76
    Cherry picking incidents from the past decade + doesn't help.

    Mass gun violence happens too often here and to deny it is just plain daft.

    Making it so easy for these hateful nuts to get their hands on assault weapons is insane.

    This incident makes me sick.
    Rights may be misused, but that is not a reason to even consider relinquishing them. The real comparison is the Statist killing of millions in nations where the general populace had been disarmed.

    We dare not follow the example from the past of civilian disarmament. That violence, all violence is altogether too common is undeniable. That may be dealt with by other means, than mass disarmament.
  5. Zugzwang
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    18 Jun '15 21:22
    Originally posted by normbenign to Sh76
    Rights may be misused, but that is not a reason to even consider relinquishing them. The real comparison is the Statist killing of millions in nations where the general populace had been disarmed.

    We dare not follow the example from the past of civilian disarmament. That violence, all violence is altogether too common is undeniable. That may be dealt with by other means, than mass disarmament.
    "Rights may be misused, but that is not a reason to even consider relinquishing them."
    --Normbenign

    If Normbenign has no worries about 'misusing (gun) rights', then why not, in his ideal
    society, permit everyone to own machine guns, hand grenades, RPGs, SAMs, etc.?

    "The real comparison is the Statist killing of millions in nations where the general populace has been disarmed."
    --Normbenign

    "The Hitler Gun Control Lie"
    --Alex Seitz-Wald (11 January 2013)

    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/11/stop_talking_about_hitler/

    Does Normbenign believe that if Germany's Jews had been armed with handguns
    or even shotguns, they could have prevented their genocide under Hitler?
    Omer Bartov, a history professor (and former officer in the IDF), strongly disagrees.
  6. Zugzwang
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    18 Jun '15 22:321 edit
    Race and gender have apparently emerged as issues in the alleged murderer's motive.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/18/charleston-shooter-black-women-white-women-rape

    The Charleston shooter killed mostly black women. This wasn't about 'rape'."
    --Rebecca Carroll (15 June 2015)

    "The motivation for killing six women and three men at church wasn't that white women are inviolable.
    It must have been that black women are disposable."
    --Rebecca Carroll

    "You rape our women, and you're taking over our country. And you have to go."
    --attributed to Dylann Roof (a white man before he allegedly opened fire in the church)

    If his professed motive was to stop white women from being raped by black men,
    then why would he kill mostly black women?

    "He (Dylann Roof) made a lot of racist jokes, but you don't really take them seriously like that.
    (In retrospect) the things he said were kind of not joking."
    --John Mullins (describing his high school acquaintance, Dylann Roof)

    So when should racist jokes--or even racist violent jokes--be taken as seriously wrong?
  7. Zugzwang
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    18 Jun '15 22:59
    Originally posted by sh76 to Whodey
    Cherry picking incidents from the past decade + doesn't help.
    Mass gun violence happens too often here and to deny it is just plain daft.
    Making it so easy for these hateful nuts to get their hands on assault weapons is insane.
    This incident makes me sick.
    Dylann Roof, the alleged murderer, was recently given a .45 caliber pistol as a birthday present by his father.

    "Making it so easy for these hateful nuts to get their hands on assault weapons is insane."
    --Sh76

    The Republican candidates for President need to hear that from a Republican like you (Sh76).
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    18 Jun '15 23:331 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Dylann Roof, the alleged murderer, was recently given a .45 caliber pistol as a birthday present by his father.

    "Making it so easy for these hateful nuts to get their hands on assault weapons is insane."
    --Sh76

    The Republican candidates for President need to hear that from a Republican like you (Sh76).
    A .45 caliber pistol cannot reasonably be considered an "assault weapon".

    He was 21 years old when his father gave him the handgun and he seems to have had only minor scrapes with the law and no history of mental illness. Short of banning the personal ownership of handguns, I do not see what possible gun control regulation would have prevented this massacre (even assuming 100% compliance with said regulation).
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    18 Jun '15 23:36
    Originally posted by sh76
    Cherry picking incidents from the past decade + doesn't help.

    Mass gun violence happens too often here and to deny it is just plain daft.

    Making it so easy for these hateful nuts to get their hands on assault weapons is insane.

    This incident makes me sick.
    What gun control regulation would have prevented Dylann Roof from owning a handgun? Surely merely voicing noxious ideological opinions shouldn't disqualify one from gun ownership.
  10. Zugzwang
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    18 Jun '15 23:403 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    A .45 caliber pistol cannot reasonably be considered an "assault weapon".

    He was 21 years old when his father gave him the handgun and he seems to have had only minor scrapes with the law and no history of mental illness. Short of banning the personal ownership of handguns, I do not see what possible gun control regulation would have prevented this massacre (even assuming 100% compliance with said regulation).
    "A .45 caliber pistol cannot be reasonably considered an 'assault weapon'."
    --No1Marauder

    I already knew that fact. Sh76, not I, wrote of 'assault weapons' (exact quote of Sh76).
    And, according to early news reports, it's unclear what gun Dylann Roof allegedly used.
    So Sh76 may have assumed it was an 'assault weapon'.

    My comment (about the Republican candidates for President) to Sh76 was motivated
    by the prevention of deaths in other cases when 'assault weapons' may be used.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    18 Jun '15 23:59
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "A .45 caliber pistol cannot be reasonably considered an 'assault weapon'."
    --No1Marauder

    I already knew that fact. Sh76, not I, wrote of 'assault weapons' (exact quote of Sh76).
    And, according to early news reports, it's unclear what gun Dylann Roof allegedly used.
    So Sh76 may have assumed it was an 'assault weapon'.
    Surveillance videos show no weapon, so it's fairly clear he was carrying a handgun. And numerous news reports have stated that survivors said he reloaded 5 times meaning it is pretty unlikely he even had anything but a standard clip.

    Of course, more information is always better, but so far it appears most probable that he used his own .45 caliber handgun with a standard 7 round mag. I don't know what proposed gun regulation would have stopped him from possessing such a weapon.
  12. Zugzwang
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    19 Jun '15 00:03
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Surveillance videos show no weapon, so it's fairly clear he was carrying a handgun. And numerous news reports have stated that survivors said he reloaded 5 times meaning it is pretty unlikely he even had anything but a standard clip.

    Of course, more information is always better, but so far it appears most probable that he used his own .45 caliber hand ...[text shortened]... I don't know what proposed gun regulation would have stopped him from possessing such a weapon.
    Actually, I had assumed that the alleged murderer used a handgun because an
    'assault weapon' would likely have been too hard to carry concealed into the church.
    I had no way of knowing what Sh76 knew about the gun when he wrote 'assault weapons'.
  13. Standard membersh76
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    19 Jun '15 01:141 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    What gun control regulation would have prevented Dylann Roof from owning a handgun? Surely merely voicing noxious ideological opinions shouldn't disqualify one from gun ownership.
    I made an assumption based on the number of deaths. My assumption was apparently wrong.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    19 Jun '15 01:56
    Originally posted by sh76
    I made an assumption based on the number of deaths. My assumption was apparently wrong.
    Unfortunately the firepower deliverable by handguns is far more potent than it was 225 years ago.
  15. Joined
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    19 Jun '15 02:00
    Originally posted by sh76
    Cherry picking incidents from the past decade + doesn't help.

    Mass gun violence happens too often here and to deny it is just plain daft.

    Making it so easy for these hateful nuts to get their hands on assault weapons is insane.

    This incident makes me sick.
    You mean like Chicago where guns were outlawed?
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