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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    28 Mar '18 20:171 edit
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/28/which-country-has-the-worst-class-system-the-uk-or-us

    "What Americans can learn from British class guilt"

    "America is supposed to have greater social mobility. In the UK, everyone
    ostensibly has a rung but they are also trapped in that position.
    But these once-clear binaries are muddled."

    "As economist Raj Chetty explained in a 2016 lecture at the London School
    of Economics, the probability of a child born to parents in the bottom fifth
    of the incomes reaching the top fifth is 7.5% in America. In the UK, this number
    is 9%, according to research by economists Jo Blanden and Stephen Machin.
    There is, in short, less mobility in the US, says Richard Reeves."

    "For Reeves, the biggest shocker has been that in America, people convince
    themselves that the system is meritocratic “and thus they don’t feel any
    shame about broadcasting the internships they got through nepotism,
    or that they got into colleges as legacies, or that they paid for private
    SAT prep for their kids”."

    "“The UK, with all of it class consciousness, brings class guilt, which is a good thing.
    But the agonizing discussions over whether British liberal parents should
    send their children to public [private] schools doesn’t happen here.
    In the US, parents are aware of structural unfairness but with a total lack of moral queasiness.”
    --Richard Reeves

    "Meanwhile, wealth inequality in the US today also resembles that before
    the Great Depression. Social networks matter greatly, and our class calibrations
    are often around what college one attended, leading to gruesome institutional
    divisions between those who attend, say, community colleges and those
    who attend top-tier universities. In England, despite the recent rise in student fees,
    university is far cheaper."
  2. Germany
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    28 Mar '18 20:42
    It is noteworthy that the U.K. has particularly poor social mobility even if the U.S.' is also very poor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
  3. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
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    28 Mar '18 20:51
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    It is noteworthy that the U.K. has particularly poor social mobility even if the U.S.' is also very poor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
    This is a good and recent article.
    https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2018/02/daily-chart-9

    The UK does surprisingly well.
    The US does really badly.
  4. Zugzwang
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    28 Mar '18 20:56
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    It is noteworthy that the U.K. has particularly poor social mobility even if the U.S.' is also very poor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
    I think that the article's point is that about all British people recognise that the UK's class-ridden.
    But most (middle-to-upper class) Americans prefer to deny the importance of class in the USA.
  5. Behind the scenes
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    28 Mar '18 22:09
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I think that the article's point is that about all British people recognise that the UK's class-ridden.
    But most (middle-to-upper class) Americans prefer to deny the importance of class in the USA.
    But most (middle-to-upper class) Americans prefer to deny the importance of class in the USA.


    Yes, many in the upper middle class do deny this, in addition, the 1% has purchased a great deal of political power and through their well financed propaganda machines have convinced many that this country club culture is all for the best. The only real opportunity for upward mobility in America for the working class is entrepreneurship.
  6. Joined
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    29 Mar '18 00:18
    The British class system is also a lot more to do with which 'class' you are born into rather than how much money you have. There are plenty of 'upper class' people around who are broke, and plenty of 'working class' rich people, who are regarded as being 'new money' and still looked down upon. It's in the blood rather than in the bank, as it were.
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    iEn guardia, Ingles!
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    29 Mar '18 01:251 edit
    Originally posted by @indonesia-phil
    The British class system is also a lot more to do with which 'class' you are born into rather than how much money you have. There are plenty of 'upper class' people around who are broke, and plenty of 'working class' rich people, who are regarded as being 'new money' and still looked down upon. It's in the blood rather than in the bank, as it were.
    There’s some of that in the US too - that’s one of the main themes of the Great Gatsby.

    YouTube : Scene From Great Gatsby
  8. Joined
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    29 Mar '18 02:44
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/28/which-country-has-the-worst-class-system-the-uk-or-us

    "What Americans can learn from British class guilt"

    "America is supposed to have greater social mobility. In the UK, everyone
    ostensibly has a rung but they are also trapped in that position.
    But these once-clear binaries are muddled."

    "As ec ...[text shortened]... universities. In England, despite the recent rise in student fees,
    university is far cheaper."
    In addition, most white Americans, even those who consider themselves liberal, are very unaware of the depth and effect of white privilege.
  9. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '18 03:461 edit
    Originally posted by @phranny
    In addition, most white Americans, even those who consider themselves liberal, are very unaware of the depth and effect of white privilege.
    Given that white Americans usually don't experience racism directly,
    their awareness of racism usually comes from the mainstream (white) media.
    That means that white Americans may have some awareness of racism
    that's regularly given massive publicity, but even "well-educatef" "liberal"
    white Americans are almost always extremely ignorant and misinformed
    about racism afflicting more politically marginalized minorities.

    _Black Fortunes_ is a 2018 book about six black Americans (former slaves)
    who became millionaires in the 19th century. At least one of them
    financed John Brown's ill-fated effort to lead slaves in armed revolt.
  10. Behind the scenes
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    29 Mar '18 04:551 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Given that white Americans usually don't experience racism directly,
    their awareness of racism usually comes from the mainstream (white) media.
    That means that white Americans may have some awareness of racism
    that's regularly given massive publicity, but even "well-educatef" "liberal"
    white Americans are almost always extremely ignorant and misinform ...[text shortened]... y. At least one of them
    financed John Brown's ill-fated effort to lead slaves in armed revolt.
    Given that white Americans usually don't experience racism directly, their awareness of racism usually comes from the mainstream (white) media.



    Duchess assumes a great deal.
  11. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    29 Mar '18 05:58
    "As economist Raj Chetty explained in a 2016 lecture at the London School
    of Economics, the probability of a child born to parents in the bottom fifth
    of the incomes reaching the top fifth is 7.5% in America. In the UK, this number
    is 9%, according to research by economists Jo Blanden and Stephen Machin.
    There is, in short, less mobility in the US, says Richard Reeves."


    That isn't a very bad number. We are talking about a total change of fortunes, here, and we are talking about entering a class through very hard work.

    What amount of people do you really think work hard enough to go from the bottom fo the top? Do you think it is much better than 1 in 20? really?

    This would also be a good thread to talk about IQ and wealth. Murray is criticized often for his work in the Bell Curve that dealt with race, but in reality, the whole first half of the book shows that whites with high IQs were more likely to enter the top 15% of income than whites with low IQs born into the top 15% were to remain in the top 15%, which is illustrative of some pretty intense meritocracy.

    Of course, it's better to be born rich than to be born poor, and there are factors that go with being poor that disadvantage people, but generally speaking we are doing a rather good job.

    I think we are also seeing upward mobility close a little bit because of the nature of the eocnomy and because persistent stratification over the last several generations has resulted in more ossified social structures.

    Since IQ is largely heritable, there just aren't that manyh people who have high IQ polygenic markers in the lower classes that haven't yet climbed up. Some of these people in the lower echelons are just there because that is their level.

    Of course, we should nnever cut off opportunities to people, but we should always be realistic.
  12. Germany
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    29 Mar '18 06:42
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    That isn't a very bad number.
    But it is very much worse than in e.g. Denmark or Canada. Why do you think that might be the case?
  13. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    29 Mar '18 06:57
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    But it is very much worse than in e.g. Denmark or Canada. Why do you think that might be the case?
    Maybe it is because there has been a declining birth rate for a longer time than in America, and two successive generations of men died in the World Wars which, while having destroyed much wealth, also opened up lots of niches for advancement and created a higher demand for employment.

    It could also be that the significant black & Hispanic populations in the US are far less likely to be socially mobile due to either "white privilege" or lack of skill or some such, which would definitely be more than enough to affect the number that puts us below Britain on these charts.

    IDK. I am open to any reasonable explanation if you can provide one.

    Care ot take a stab at it, frand?
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    29 Mar '18 11:14
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    IDK. I am open to any reasonable explanation if you can provide one.
    Read.
  15. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '18 18:532 edits
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Given that white Americans usually don't experience racism directly, their awareness of racism usually comes from the mainstream (white) media.

    Duchess assumes a great deal.
    Most white Americans (including the arrogant racist troll Mchill) love to fantasize that they
    know and understand much more about racism than they do. As many scientific surveys
    have shown, non-white Americans believe that there's significantly more racism than white
    Americans believe exists in the USA. Non-white Americans also give a significantly lower
    rating than white Americans do toward white Americans' supposed understanding of racism.

    But no factual evidence will prevent most smug white Americans from continuing to believe
    that they understand racism at least as well (usually better) as non-white Americans do.

    While some, though far from all or even most, white Americans here apparently have some
    awareness (coming from enough coverage in the mainstream US media) of racism against
    blacks, none of these white Americans evidently has such awareness of racism against
    some less covered minorities, despite academic studies about racism against them.
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