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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    24 Feb '19 21:083 edits
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/24/antisemites-use-language-of-anti-zionism-the-two-are-distinct

    "Antisemites use the language of anti-Zionism. The two are distinct.
    Racism against Jews is surging. But disgust should not silence all critics of Zionism."

    "Anti-Zionism is antisemitism. So claimed France’s President Emmanuel Macron
    in a speech last week in which he promised to change policing regulations
    to criminalise anti-Zionism. The condemnation of anti-Zionism as
    antisemitism has a long history, but in recent years has become
    increasingly accepted by mainstream politicians and organisations."

    "It remains important to resist the equation of anti-Zionism and antisemitism."

    "The Zionist notion of “self-determination”, on the other hand, embodies
    the idea that Jews anywhere in the world “self-determine” and that
    such self-determination relates to a state in which the vast majority of
    Jews do not and will not live.Zionism is a form of ethnic, as opposed to civic, nationalism."

    "As the late [Jewish] historian Tony Judt put it in an essay for the
    New York Review of Books, Israel is both a democracy in which non-Jews
    can be citizens and “a state in which Jews and the Jewish religion have
    exclusive privileges from which non-Jewish citizens are forever excluded”
    and from which Palestinians grievously suffer."

    Israel is, at best, a 'Herrenvolk democracy', with an apartheid system
    rather similar, though not identical, to South Africa's in the past.

    "Judt, who in early life was a Zionist, came eventually to accept that the only lasting
    solution would be a single, secular state in which both Jews and Palestinians were treated equally."

    "The elision of anti-Zionism and antisemitism is a feature, then, of both sides of the debate.
    On the one side, it helps to legitimise antisemitism, on the other to close down
    debates about Israel and to criminalise genuine struggles for Palestinian rights.
    We should reject both."
  2. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Feb '19 21:18
    Do Jewish people deserve a homeland? This is basically zionism, right.

    Does anyone deserve a homeland? I think everyone does.

    The same applies to Palestine and this is why it is a difficult question.

    The funny thing is ... The Jews are able to use the media to make it so that they get the French president to equate opposing their nationalism with racism.

    Even with all of their white privilege, no white country can elicit the same reaction from the media.
  3. Zugzwang
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    24 Feb '19 21:323 edits
    @philokalia said
    Do Jewish people deserve a homeland? This is basically zionism, right.

    Does anyone deserve a homeland? I think everyone does.

    The same applies to Palestine and this is why it is a difficult question.

    The funny thing is ... The Jews are able to use the media to make it so that they get the French president to equate opposing their nationalism with racism.

    Even with all of their white privilege, no white country can elicit the same reaction from the media.
    Philokalia shows his usual ignorance and oversimplistic (at best) 'thinking'.

    Does Palestine belong to the people who live (or lived) there or to a people who
    make a claim based upon some other people having lived there thousands of years ago?
    It's a stretch to argue that 20th century Jews were the same people as Jews in Biblical times.

    When the Zionist movement began in the late 19th century, only a tiny minority
    of Palestine's inhabitants were Jews. Even in 1948, when Israel was founded,
    Jews (including many recent immigrants) were only about one third of the people
    in Palestine, but Jews were awarded the lion's share of Palestine's land.

    Even today only a minority of the world's Jewish population live in Israel.
    Even though Israel welcomes every Jew, most Jews choose not to live in their supposed 'homeland'.

    There are 30-40 million Kurds compared to about 15 million Jews in the world.
    No government supports an independent state of Kurdistan.
    Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria have repressed Kurdish nationalism.

    Who supports an independent state (Khalistan) for the Sikhs in the Punjab?

    Given that Israel has long been ruled by Ashkenazi Jews and chooses (though geographically
    in Asia) to belong to European rather than Asian international organizations, why
    does Philokalia apparently regard Israel as a 'non-white country'?
  4. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Feb '19 22:44
    @duchess64 said
    Philokalia shows his usual ignorance and oversimplistic (at best) 'thinking'.

    Does Palestine belong to the people who live (or lived) there or to a people who
    make a claim based upon some other people having lived there thousands of years ago?
    It's a stretch to argue that 20th century Jews were the same people as Jews in Biblical times.

    When the Zionist movement beg ...[text shortened]... international organizations, why
    does Philokalia apparently regard Israel as a 'non-white country'?
    (1a) That's a good point about them not really being a continuation of the Hebrews of the Bible who live there. But I do know some people who would insist that they are modern Hebrews and I believe there's been efforts to emphasize the Semitic traits of the Ashkenazi genome.

    This article isn't that in depth but it suggests that the progenitors of the Ashkenazim were half Semitic, half European,and that the Ashkenazim have been intermixing extensively.

    Make of it what you will.

    (1b) Are the Ashkenazi white? I don't know. Sure, I think so, but if they wish to dispute it I don't have a problem with that.

    (1c) It's funny that your proof that the media stands up for white nationhood is that they stand up for Israel, which is a distinct and historically persecuted minority, is pretty funny.

    This doesn't jive very well with typical ideas about intersectionality, I think.

    So would you say the media is being inconsistent when not representing the interests of white nationalist Europeans?
  5. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Feb '19 22:49
    On Kurdistan... My significant others mother supports Kurdish independence, as does her whole family. Her father is a Turk, though, which makes it funny.

    I support an independent Kurdish state, yes.

    They deserve a homeland.

    As far as Sikhs go... I don't know the details at all and I'd have to study it and study the Indian federalism and the history.

    But this isn't a question that necessarily concerns me. It's for the Sikhs and their neighbors.

    But yes, I think you'll find that I consistently support independence for any people who desire an ethnic and religious homeland that have some amount of consensus and legitimate claims. But it is also in this spirit of anti-globalism that I'm not overly concerned with it unless it's an issue where globalists themselves conspire against the people who wish to be independent.
  6. Zugzwang
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    24 Feb '19 23:07
    @philokalia said
    (1a) That's a good point about them not really being a continuation of the Hebrews of the Bible who live there. But I do know some people who would insist that they are modern Hebrews and I believe there's been efforts to emphasize the Semitic traits of the Ashkenazi genome.

    This article isn't that in depth but it suggests that the progenitors of the Ashkenazim were ha ...[text shortened]... the media is being inconsistent when not representing the interests of white nationalist Europeans?
    Philokalia evidently conflates being 'Jewish' and being 'Israeli'.

    Most Jews are not Israeli citizens or prefer not to live in their 'homeland' of Israel.
    Many Israeli citizens are not Jewish. They encounter major discrimination in 'the Jewish state'.
  7. Zugzwang
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    24 Feb '19 23:112 edits
    @philokalia said
    On Kurdistan... My significant others mother supports Kurdish independence, as does her whole family. Her father is a Turk, though, which makes it funny.

    I support an independent Kurdish state, yes.

    They deserve a homeland.

    As far as Sikhs go... I don't know the details at all and I'd have to study it and study the Indian federalism and the history.

    But this ...[text shortened]... ss it's an issue where globalists themselves conspire against the people who wish to be independent.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement

    "The Khalistan movement is a Sikh separatist movement, which seeks to create a
    separate country called Khalistān ("The Land of the Pure" ) in the Punjab region to
    serve as a homeland for Sikhs."

    India has fought a ruthless war against Sikh nationalism.
    In revenge for the Indian Army's assault upon the Golden Temple in Amritsar,
    Sikhs (whom she had trusted) assassinated Indira Gandhi.
  8. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Feb '19 23:19
    @duchess64 said
    Philokalia evidently conflates being 'Jewish' and being 'Israeli'.

    Most Jews are not Israeli citizens or prefer not to live in their 'homeland' of Israel.
    Many Israeli citizens are not Jewish. They encounter major discrimination in 'the Jewish state'.
    Is Israel a Jewish state?

    Does Israel give preferential treatment to Jews in general?

    And doesn't it even consider atheist Jews to be just as important as religious Jews, indicating thst this is a sort of ethnostate.. ?

    Obviously a Jew who isn't a citizen has less rights than a Jew who is, but surely this isn't conventionally considered discriminating...
  9. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Feb '19 23:20
    @duchess64 said
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement

    "The Khalistan movement is a Sikh separatist movement, which seeks to create a
    separate country called Khalistān ("The Land of the Pure" ) in the Punjab region to
    serve as a homeland for Sikhs."

    India has fought a ruthless war against Sikh nationalism.
    In revenge for the Indian Army's assault upon the Golden Temple in Amritsar,
    Sikhs (whom she had trusted) assassinated Indira Gandhi.
    Sure.

    I can't form an opinion on something so big from a Wikipedia article though, lol.
  10. Zugzwang
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    24 Feb '19 23:291 edit
    @philokalia said
    Is Israel a Jewish state?

    Does Israel give preferential treatment to Jews in general?

    And doesn't it even consider atheist Jews to be just as important as religious Jews, indicating thst this is a sort of ethnostate.. ?

    Obviously a Jew who isn't a citizen has less rights than a Jew who is, but surely this isn't conventionally considered discriminating...
    There has been controversy about Israel *officially* defining itself as 'the state of
    the Jewish people' rather than as a nation of citizens. But it has long been obvious
    that Israel's at least a de facto 'Jewish state', which severely discriminates against non-Jews.

    Israel is a de facto Jewish supremacist 'ethnostate'.
    It's particularly admired by white American evangelical Christians (including Suzianne),
    who usually regard Palestinian Christians with racist disdain.
  11. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    24 Feb '19 23:33
    What about it is Jewish supremacist?

    I understand how there are major issues with how Palestinians are treated....

    But that is a complex political circumstance.

    Does Israel have a stance somewhere that says that Jews are better than Koreans or whites or Bengalis or anything?

    Or do you just say that any ethnostate is de facto "supremacist?"
  12. Zugzwang
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    24 Feb '19 23:572 edits
    @philokalia said
    What about it is Jewish supremacist?

    I understand how there are major issues with how Palestinians are treated....

    But that is a complex political circumstance.

    Does Israel have a stance somewhere that says that Jews are better than Koreans or whites or Bengalis or anything?

    Or do you just say that any ethnostate is de facto "supremacist?"
    Philokalia shows abysmal ignorance about conditions in Israel.

    Israel has a host of laws, regulations, or policies discriminating against non-Jews,
    including *non-Jewish citizens* of Israel. Apart from Israeli Jewish racism against
    the Palestinians, non-Arab migrant workers have complained of discrimination
    against them for not being Jewish.

    It's well-known that Philokalia loves 'ethnostates', so he presumably seeks reasons
    to admire Israel and excuse its discrimination against non-Jews.
  13. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    25 Feb '19 00:22
    @duchess64 said
    Philokalia shows abysmal ignorance about conditions in Israel.

    Israel has a host of laws, regulations, or policies discriminating against non-Jews,
    including *non-Jewish citizens* of Israel. Apart from Israeli Jewish racism against
    the Palestinians, non-Arab migrant workers have complained of discrimination
    against them for not being Jewish.

    It's well-known that P ...[text shortened]... s', so he presumably seeks reasons
    to admire Israel and excuse its discrimination against non-Jews.
    In my post I said

    I understand how there are major issues with how Palestinians are treated..


    Meaning, I am aware how there are going to be a lot of things people find unjust about the treatment of Palestinians in the area. However, I am sure that the bulk of these are justified along the lines of Palesitnians being a persistent security threat and Israel needing to prioritize its own citizens over foreigners.

    This may even include some complex things about water access, walls, checkpoints, displacement from land, etc. In fact, I have heard that Orthodox monasteries, hermitages, and even churches in use have been bulldozed or seized by the Israelis from the Orthodox Christian Palestinians, and that concerns me very much.

    In fact, I think you'd be surprised at how, on some of these issues, I may very well be pro-Palestinian... but IDK. This is not a field of expertise of mine and I think that it requires a heck of a lot of reading and background information to fully understand it.

    So, sure, yes Philokalia is ignorant about a lot of the conditions in Israel. I embrace that fact. I do not know the details. However, I wouldn't characterize it as abysmal ignorance. I'm a full time worker with hobbies other than knowing the ins and outs of what is going on there. And I am not a total idiot.

    I do not understand it adequately on the macro-scale, so I do not try to understand it so much in the details. In a sense, I am uncomfortable commenting on this extensively unless we are talking about it in the biggest possible picture of ethnostates and the likes...

    I hope that illuminates you as to where I am coming from on this.

    So, to answer you...

    Even if Israel has laws and policies which are discriminatory against non-Jews and/or non-citizens, this is not unique. Moreover, it doesn't show, to me, some doctrine of Jewish supremacism because there is nothing about these forms of preferential treatment that bespeak, to me, some kind of massive, ideological commitment to "Jewish Supremacy."

    I think you are borrowing the extremely political & biased concepts among the Weestern far left which isn't an accurate reflection of reality.

    So that's where I stand on it and I might not be interacting with your posts further because I am not usre if there is more to explain.

    I'd also like you to be polite and kind in discussion.
  14. Zugzwang
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    25 Feb '19 00:301 edit
    @philokalia said
    In my post I said

    I understand how there are major issues with how Palestinians are treated..


    Meaning, I am aware how there are going to be a lot of things people find unjust about the treatment of Palestinians in the area. However, I am sure that the bulk of these are justified along the lines of Palesitnians being a persistent security threat ...[text shortened]... re if there is more to explain.[/i]

    I'd also like you to be polite and kind in discussion.
    Philokalia keeps showing his usual ignorance or willful blindness to the facts.
    Philokalia keeps refusing to accept that I may be much more knowledgeable than he.

    "Israel has a host of laws, regulations, or policies discriminating against non-Jews,
    including *non-Jewish citizens* of Israel."
    --Duchess64

    I am NOT referring to Israel discriminating against Palestinians under military occupation.
    I am referring to Israel discriminating against Palestinians who are 'Arab citizens of Israel'
    (to quote official Israeli jargon).

    A Jewish child and an Arab child may be born on the same day in, say, Haifa, Israel.
    Throughout his or her life in Israel, the Arab child will encounter significant adverse
    discrimination in housing, education, employment and other ways. It's obvious
    that Israel's government values the Jewish child much more than the Arab child.
  15. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    25 Feb '19 00:43
    @duchess64 said
    Philokalia keeps showing his usual ignorance or willful blindness to the facts.
    Philokalia keeps refusing to accept that I may be much more knowledgeable than he.

    "Israel has a host of laws, regulations, or policies discriminating against non-Jews,
    including *non-Jewish citizens* of Israel."
    --Duchess64

    I am NOT referring to Israel discriminating against Palestin ...[text shortened]... ways. It's obvious
    that Israel's government values the Jewish child much more than the Arab child.
    Alright, so how about you tell me about this.

    I'm not versed in this but I'm aware that they might have the short end of the stick in some areas based off of the land seizures and difficulties the church can have there.

    But I am also aware of the Arab members of the Knesset and the fact that Arabs in Israel do enjoy a high quality of life relative to Palestinians.

    But enlighten me.

    And do try to be kind. I've shown no hostility to you.
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