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  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    29 Mar '19 16:05
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/28/confronting-racism-is-not-about-the-needs-and-feelings-of-white-people

    "Confronting racism is not about the needs and feelings of white people.
    Too often whites at discussions on race decide for themselves what will be discussed, what they will hear, what they will learn.
    And it is their space. All spaces are."
    --Ijeoma Oluo

    That's exactly how almost all white people behave in this forum.
    Many, if not most, white people here evidently would prefer to censor
    all criticism of racism that could make them uncomfortable in any way.

    "Once again, what might have been a discussion about the real,
    quantifiable harm being done to people of color had been subsumed
    by a discussion about the feelings of white people, the expectations
    of white people, the needs of white people."

    That's because most white people take for granted--without admitting
    it or perhaps even recognizing it--that white people are naturally
    more important in every way than non-white people.

    "I’ve experienced similar interruptions and dismissals more times than I can count.
    Even when my name is on the poster, none of these places seem like
    the right places in which to talk about what I and so many people of
    color need to talk about. So often the white attendees have decided for
    themselves what will be discussed, what they will hear, what they will learn.
    And it is their space. All spaces are.

    One day, in frustration, I posted this social media status:
    “If your anti-racism work prioritizes the ‘growth’ and ‘enlightenment’ of
    white America over the safety, dignity and humanity of people of
    color – it’s not anti-racism work. It’s white supremacy.”

    Of course. Even many white anti-racist activists tend to regard
    white concerns as intrinsically more important than non-white needs.

    "Just once I want to speak to a room of white people who know
    they are there because they are the problem. Who know they are
    there to begin the work of seeing where they have been complicit
    and harmful so that they can start doing better. Because white
    supremacy is their construct, a construct they have benefited from,
    and deconstructing white supremacy is their duty."

    As far as I know, none of the white people here has reached that
    level of awareness of their own complicity in racism and how they
    benefit from racism in society.

    "After my most recent talk, a black woman slipped me a note in which
    she had written that she would never be able to speak openly about
    the ways that racism was impacting her life, not without risking
    reprisals from white peers."

    She's absolutely right. I completely understand her.

    I expect that none--though I hope that perhaps one--of the white
    people here will comprehend what Ijeoma Oluo eloquently writes.
    I expect most white people to react with their usual smug confidence
    that they have nothing to learn, their usual intolerance of perceived criticism,
    or their common raging hatred of any non-white person who dares
    to make them feel uncomfortable.

    Like me, Ijeoma Oluo understands exactly what most white people are toward racism.
  2. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '19 16:181 edit
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/28/confronting-racism-is-not-about-the-needs-and-feelings-of-white-people

    "Confronting racism is not about the needs and feelings of white people.
    Too often whites at discussions on race decide for themselves what will be discussed, what they will hear, what they will learn.
    And it is their space. All spaces are."
    -- ...[text shortened]... uncomfortable.

    Like me, Ijeoma Oluo understands exactly what most white people are toward racism.
    Knowing (all too well) the harsh realities of continuing white racism, where do we
    (non-white people) go from here?

    At some point, most non-white people tend to give up on white people.
    NOT on EVERY white person, of course. Most non-white people can find at least
    one comparative decent white person to be a friend and perhaps more in their lives.
    But non-white people tend to give up hoping that most white people will ever
    become open enough to learn and change their complicity of racism, which they,
    of course, deny having in the first place.

    Many white people yearn to live in 'whiter' societies, with fewer non-white people around.
    They may hope that their racism is a way to drive non-white people away.
    While it's impracticable to expect every non-white person to leave white-majority societies,
    there may be a quiet exodus (not covered by white-dominated media) of highly
    educated or skilled non-white people who have grown up in racist white-majority
    societies and are ready to face the challenges of building new lives in presumably
    less racist non-white majority societies.

    Perhaps if (or when) all talented non-white people have left their racist society,
    most white people may realize how much they miss and need non-white people.
    But then it may be too late to ask them to come back.
  3. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
    A Spirited Misfit
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    29 Mar '19 17:48
    @duchess64 said
    Knowing (all too well) the harsh realities of continuing white racism, where do we
    (non-white people) go from here?

    At some point, most non-white people tend to give up on white people.
    NOT on EVERY white person, of course. Most non-white people can find at least
    one comparative decent white person to be a friend and perhaps more in their lives.
    But non-white people ...[text shortened]... how much they miss and need non-white people.
    But then it may be too late to ask them to come back.
    In no way is this thread a reflection of your pathological racism towards white people.

    In no way whatsoever.
  4. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '19 18:10
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    In no way is this thread a reflection of your pathological racism towards white people.

    In no way whatsoever.
    By his absurd response, the close-minded Ghost of a Duke corroborates Ijeoma Oluo's point
    about the obstinate unwillingness of most white people to learn about or work to change their racism.

    Contrary to what the fatuous Ghost of a Duke apparently fantasizes, some of the
    men and women closest to my heart have been white. These white people have
    sometimes told me that they love me very much like (depending on our relationship)
    I were their daughter, sister, or intended romantic partner. Some of them evidently
    have loved me and attempted to help me more than some of my relatives have done.
    So I know that some white people are capable of overcoming enough, though not
    necessarily all, of their prejudices. I value the friendship and love they have offered me.
    But there are many more white people who treat me as only a narrow dehumanize stereotype.

    Again, here's what Jamie Utt (a white American man) tells his fellow white people.

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/8-things-white-people-race/

    "8 Things White People Really Need to Understand About Race"

    "First, I am White, and as such, my role in ending racial oppression must be in engaging
    other White people to join accountable work for racial justice. Plain and simple."
    --Jamie Utt

    "If we want to end racism, White people need to do more listening.
    Something that often offends White people (especially since we can be socialized
    to believe we’re experts on anything and everything) is the idea that there are
    many, many things about race and racism in the United States that we inherently
    do not understand because we are White."

    I expect Ghost of a Duke NOT to listen (he never has) to Jamie Utt (a white man),
    let alone to Ijeoma Oluo, me, or any other non-white person about racism.
    I expect Ghost of a Duke to reject completely what Jamie Utt tells his fellow white people.
    And I expect Ghost of a Duke to keep being racist while indignantly denying that he could be racist.
  5. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '19 18:212 edits
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/28/confronting-racism-is-not-about-the-needs-and-feelings-of-white-people

    "Confronting racism is not about the needs and feelings of white people.
    Too often whites at discussions on race decide for themselves what will be discussed, what they will hear, what they will learn.
    And it is their space. All spaces are."
    -- ...[text shortened]... uncomfortable.

    Like me, Ijeoma Oluo understands exactly what most white people are toward racism.
    Again (I already have posted this several times), this article explains the terminal
    frustration that non-white people feel toward most white people about racism.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race

    "Why I’m no longer talking to white people about race"
    --Reni Eddo-Lodge

    "This is what structural racism looks like. It is not just about personal prejudice,
    but the collective effects of bias. It is the kind of racism that has the power to
    drastically affect people’s life chances. These highly educated, high-earning white
    men are very likely to be in positions that influence others’ lives – teaching, prosecuting,
    examining college applicants and hiring staff. They are almost certainly the kind of
    people who set workplace cultures.

    They are unlikely to boast about their politics with colleagues or acquaintances
    because of the social stigma attached to holding racist views. Their racism is covert.
    It doesn’t reveal itself in spitting at strangers in the street. Instead, it lies in an apologetic
    smile while telling a non-white employee that they didn’t get the promotion.
    It manifests itself in a CV tossed in the bin because the applicant has a foreign-sounding name.
    Racism is woven into the fabric of our world. This demands a collective redefinition
    of what it means to be racist and what we must do to end it."

    I completely concur. I also expect that about none of the white people reading
    those words will comprehend them, let alone agree to support their message.

    "The reality is that, in material terms, we are nowhere near equal. This state of play is violently unjust.
    The difference that people of colour are all vaguely aware of from childhood is not benign.
    It is fraught with racism, racist stereotyping and, for women, racialised misogyny."

    Few white people have any comprehension of that reality for non-white people.

    "Colour-blindness is a childish, stunted analysis of racism. It starts and ends
    at “discriminating against a person because of the colour of their skin is bad”,
    without any accounting for the ways structural power works in these exchanges.
    This definition of racism is often used to silence people of colour when we attempt
    to articulate the racism we face. When we point this out, we are accused of being
    racist against white people, and the avoidance of accountability continues."

    That's exactly how many, if not most, white people here keep behaving.

    "Not seeing race does little to dismantle racist structures or improve the lives of people of colour.
    In order to do so, we must see race. We must see who benefits from their race,
    who is affected by negative stereotyping of theirs, and on whom power and privilege
    is bestowed – not just because of their race, but also their class and gender.
    Seeing race is essential to changing the system."

    Few, if any, writers here comprehend the concept of intersectionality.
    As far as I can tell, none of the white people currently writing in this forum has
    anything close to an adequate understanding of racism. All these white people could
    benefit from intensive education on racism, but none of them believe that they need it.
  6. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '19 18:421 edit
    @duchess64 said
    Knowing (all too well) the harsh realities of continuing white racism, where do we
    (non-white people) go from here?

    At some point, most non-white people tend to give up on white people.
    NOT on EVERY white person, of course. Most non-white people can find at least
    one comparative decent white person to be a friend and perhaps more in their lives.
    But non-white people ...[text shortened]... how much they miss and need non-white people.
    But then it may be too late to ask them to come back.
    In my many discussions with non-white people, the existence of endemic white racism
    is regarded as such an obvious given that it rarely needs to be invoked explicitly.
    Saying that white people tend to be racist and benefit from racism would be like
    saying that it's better to have a lot of money rather than none

    About all of us have hoped for a peaceful, preferably legal, ending of racism.
    After many years, even decades, of vainly attempting to persuade white people to
    listen about obvious realities of racism, most of us have given up on having any
    serious talks with white people about racism. They tend to be racist to the core.
    They are unwilling to listen, let alone to learn. And they will fight hard, perhaps to
    the death, to preserve the racist system that gives them so many advantages.

    Most of us have spent (or wasted) much energy in attempting to convince white people
    that they have nothing to fear (beyond fairer competition) in a world without racism.
    Not many white people seem to believe it, however, perhaps because they are
    conscious at some level (though they keep denying the existence of racism) of
    how much racism has benefited them at the expense of non-white people.

    So most white people seem terrified of 'reverse racism' (or 'revenge racism' to quote ShallowBlue).
    Many, if not most, white people love to act like all non-white people should instantly
    forgive and hold no resentment toward any white people about centuries of racist
    oppression, including enslavement and genocide. But if even one white person anywhere
    suffers (or claims to suffer) one day of 'reverse racism', white people tend to scream
    in unison that it's absolutely intolerable, worse than all white racism put together.

    Given that most white people seem to distrust our sincere efforts to reassure them
    about 'racial fairness' in a non-racist future, why should we keep trying to be so considerate?
    If, after having lost a future 'race war', white people expect us to take revenge by
    treating them almost as badly as they treated us, then why not let them have a
    *temporary* taste of 'reverse racism' and see if that may help them develop some empathy?

    If we must finally overcome racism only through fighting a long bitter war, which
    will cost the lives of many of us, then why should we be more lenient toward the
    white racists who have lost than we were toward the Nazis who lost their war?
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    29 Mar '19 18:511 edit
    @duchess64 said
    By his absurd response, the close-minded Ghost of a Duke corroborates Ijeoma Oluo's point
    about the obstinate unwillingness of most white people to learn about or work to change their racism.

    Contrary to what the fatuous Ghost of a Duke apparently fantasizes, some of the
    men and women closest to my heart have been white. These white people have
    sometimes told me tha ...[text shortened]... And I expect Ghost of a Duke to keep being racist while indignantly denying that he could be racist.
    Waffle aside, do you have a daily quota of anti-white posts to make on internet forums?


    And still waiting for a single piece of evidence of anything racist I have ever posted. (Third time of asking). - Responding that no one is 100% free of discrimination is pathetically wishy-washy.
  8. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    29 Mar '19 18:56
    @duchess64 said
    Again (I already have posted this several times), this article explains the terminal
    frustration that non-white people feel toward most white people about racism.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race
    Why have you felt the need/compulsion to post it several times?!
  9. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '19 19:10
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Waffle aside, do you have a daily quota of anti-white posts to make on internet forums?


    And still waiting for a single piece of evidence of anything racist I have ever posted. (Third time of asking). - Responding that no one is 100% free of discrimination is pathetically wishy-washy.
    Let the record show that the obstinate racist Ghost of a Duke has implicitly attacked
    Jamie Utt (whom I QUOTED) , a white man, for allegedly being 'anti-white' because
    he dares to criticize white racism and make other white people (like Ghost of a Duke)
    feel uncomfortable.

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/8-things-white-people-race/

    "8 Things White People Really Need to Understand About Race"

    "First, I am White, and as such, my role in ending racial oppression must be in engaging
    other White people to join accountable work for racial justice. Plain and simple."
    --Jamie Utt

    "If we want to end racism, White people need to do more listening.
    Something that often offends White people (especially since we can be socialized
    to believe we’re experts on anything and everything) is the idea that there are
    many, many things about race and racism in the United States that we inherently
    do not understand because we are White."

    I expect Ghost of a Duke NOT to listen (he never has) to Jamie Utt (a white man),
    let alone to Ijeoma Oluo, me, or any other non-white person about racism.
    I expect Ghost of a Duke to reject completely what Jamie Utt tells his fellow white people.
    And I expect Ghost of a Duke to keep being racist while indignantly denying that he could be racist.
  10. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '19 19:132 edits
    @ghost-of-a-duke said
    Why have you felt the need/compulsion to post it several times?!
    Would the obstinate racist Ghost of a Duke like to ask Jamie Utt (a white man) why
    he has written MANY articles and given MANY lectures, NOT ONLY ONE, on white racism?

    Would Ghost of a Duke expect that Jamie Utt write ONE AND ONLY ONE article
    criticizing white racism and then promptly retire, exclaiming 'Mission accomplished!
    Now that I have criticized racism ONCE in my life, I know that racism will no longer exist!" ?

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/8-things-white-people-race/

    "8 Things White People Really Need to Understand About Race"

    "First, I am White, and as such, my role in ending racial oppression must be in engaging
    other White people to join accountable work for racial justice. Plain and simple."
    --Jamie Utt

    "If we want to end racism, White people need to do more listening.
    Something that often offends White people (especially since we can be socialized
    to believe we’re experts on anything and everything) is the idea that there are
    many, many things about race and racism in the United States that we inherently
    do not understand because we are White."

    The reason why anti-racism views need to be reiterated is BECAUSE MOST WHITE PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN.
  11. Zugzwang
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    29 Mar '19 19:19
    Reni Eddo-Lodge, Ijeoma Oluo, Jamie Utt, and I understand much more about
    racism than all the white people here put together.

    I would be proud to stand beside them in the ongoing struggle or future war 'to the knife'.
    We already know that, if we lose, we can expect no mercy from the white racists.
  12. Subscriberchessturd
    Trump 2020
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    29 Mar '19 20:08
    Of course you will lose.
    We already have y'all shooting each other and calling each other N.

    We prepare with guns, ammo, food, vehicles etc.
    Y'all don't got nothin.
  13. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    29 Mar '19 20:09
    @duchess64 said
    Let the record show that the obstinate racist Ghost of a Duke has implicitly attacked
    Jamie Utt (whom I QUOTED) , a white man, for allegedly being 'anti-white' because
    he dares to criticize white racism and make other white people (like Ghost of a Duke)
    feel uncomfortable.

    https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/8-things-white-people-race/

    "8 Things White People Rea ...[text shortened]... And I expect Ghost of a Duke to keep being racist while indignantly denying that he could be racist.
    Let the record show that all of my comments were made to you directly with no reference, implicit or otherwise about Jamie Utt.
  14. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    29 Mar '19 20:11
    @duchess64 said
    Would the obstinate racist Ghost of a Duke like to ask Jamie Utt (a white man) why
    he has written MANY articles and given MANY lectures, NOT ONLY ONE, on white racism?

    Would Ghost of a Duke expect that Jamie Utt write ONE AND ONLY ONE article
    criticizing white racism and then promptly retire, exclaiming 'Mission accomplished!
    Now that I have criticized racism ONCE in ...[text shortened]...

    The reason why anti-racism views need to be reiterated is BECAUSE MOST WHITE PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN.
    Waffle aside, why do you have a pathological hatred of white people?
  15. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    29 Mar '19 20:12
    @chessturd said
    Of course you will lose.
    We already have y'all shooting each other and calling each other N.

    We prepare with guns, ammo, food, vehicles etc.
    Y'all don't got nothin.
    You're a particularly strange fellow.
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