Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Dec '16 09:17
    Originally posted by Amaurote
    Nope, boundary changes account for only 18 losses to Labour. Tory gerrymandering aside, which they're pastmasters at, it's pretty academic with poll ratings and electoral results like this: Corbyn has no strategy, is invisible, is inaudible, cannot persuade, does not want to persuade, and refuses to engage with debate as they present, let alone anticipate t ...[text shortened]... ws/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/81620/diane-abbott-labour-will-be-neck-and-neck-tories
    Only 18 losses - one of which I am sure will be Wirral West, sadly, the point of my comment. It has a hard working constituency party, tirelessly campaigning for its excellent MP Margaret Greenwood.
  2. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Dec '16 09:22
    Originally posted by Amaurote
    As for guild socialism, yes, I am sure, thanks. More of an SG Hobson man than a GDH Cole man, but I think "National Guilds" and "Self-Government in Industry" are equally great disquisitions/analyses of the subject. Hobson was more literary and a more impressive activist, but more accurate on the nature of wage slavery, while Cole, more cold-blooded and cere ...[text shortened]... lexes, I think there's much we can learn from the movement. Albert is a terrible writer, though.
    I think a lot can be learned by reading into Labour Party hustory and I am not ready for that dsicussion, though I have been upsetting myself by reading about the Fabians lately. What I enquired really was why you imagine "guild socialism" is relevant and viable as a political position today. It was hardly a majority viewpoint even in the days you are referring to.
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    12 Dec '16 10:303 edits
    The fall of Labour in Scotland is very interesting for we were for many years staunchly a Labour voting people and have an innate distrust of Toryism. The reason for this I think was perceived that Labour had not done a single thing for the Scottish electorate. Since the SNP has almost universally been received we have seen incredible inward investment. In my little insignificant principality there has been three huge secondary school raised to the ground and rebuilt and two primary schools raised to the ground and rebuilt with ultra modern facilities, there is a third on its way. An entire village of mostly public housing was demolished and rebuilt with excellent facilities. I have never seen so much inward investment in my lifetime since the SNP have taken office.

    The UK government is now sending those with eating disorders north of the border because we have superb public health care facilities.
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Dec '16 16:181 edit
    YouTube

    JC4PM for me too.
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    12 Dec '16 17:06
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    The fall of Labour in Scotland is very interesting for we were for many years staunchly a Labour voting people and have an innate distrust of Toryism. The reason for this I think was perceived that Labour had not done a single thing for the Scottish electorate. Since the SNP has almost universally been received we have seen incredible inward invest ...[text shortened]... with eating disorders north of the border because we have superb public health care facilities.
    Just wait until the bill falls on your hall floor 😲
  6. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Dec '16 20:02
    Originally posted by phil3000
    Just wait until the bill falls on your hall floor 😲
    In 1848 a committee report to the State Senate of Ohio emphasized that taxation paid for “social order” [JSOH]:

    Rightful taxation is the price of social order. In other words, it is that portion of the citizen’s property which he yields up to the government in order to provide for the protection of all the rest.

    in 1852 a committee appointed by the governor of Vermont wrote a report for the legislature which included the following:

    Taxation is the price which we pay for civilization, for our social, civil and political institutions, for the security of life and property, and without which, we must resort to the law of force.

    In 1903 taxes were connected to the goal of “remaining civilized” by Albert Bushnell Hart [AGAH]:

    Taxation is the price which civilized communities pay for the opportunity of remaining civilized.

    In 1916 the State School Supervisor of Georgia argued for the use of taxes to support schools. He invoked a concise version of the quotation under investigation [CDFL]:

    Taxation for schools is American and democratic. “Taxation is the price of civilization.” “Only the savage pays no taxes.”

    In 1918 an article in the periodical Forum by Perley Morse said this [FRPM]:

    Taxes are the price of development and civilization, and it is worth it.

    In 1927 Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. wrote about taxes in a court opinion:

    Taxes are what we pay for civilized society, including the chance to insure.

    In 1938 Frankfurter published the book “Mr. Justice Holmes and the Supreme Court”, and he also wrote an article for the Atlantic Monthly magazine. Both publications included this story about Holmes [ATFF] [LPFF]:

    He did not have a curmudgeon’s feelings about his own taxes. A secretary who exclaimed ‘Don’t you hate to pay taxes!’ was rebuked with the hot response, ‘No, young feller. I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization.’

    http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/13/taxes-civilize/
  7. Standard memberfinnegan
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    12 Dec '16 20:111 edit
    Originally posted by phil3000
    Just wait until the bill falls on your hall floor 😲
    Remember right wing tax cuts do not benefit the working class or the middle class, whose jobs and conditions have been savagely undermined since the onset of the neoliberal agenda in the Eighties. What they do however is to withdraw the services and social benefits which made decent lives achievable for most people.

    What is killing the middle class in Britain is the very destruction of public spending which has sucked the life out of our economy. Their wealth is not transferring to the poor through welfare payments, which have been reduced svaagely, but to the rich through corporate welfare and a virtually voluntary tax regime.

    For example there is little benefit in a small reduction in income tax if this is balanced by a massive increase in demand for payments of diverse kinds, or a massive increase in the level of risk and uncertainty facing us. You have to look at the whole economic package before deciding if a tax reduction is at all desirable.
  8. Subscriberinvigorate
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    12 Dec '16 23:04
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Remember right wing tax cuts do not benefit the working class or the middle class, whose jobs and conditions have been savagely undermined since the onset of the neoliberal agenda in the Eighties. What they do however is to withdraw the services and social benefits which made decent lives achievable for most people.

    What is killing the middle class in B ...[text shortened]... ve to look at the whole economic package before deciding if a tax reduction is at all desirable.
    Its only really the top 20% that pay in more than they take from the state. It is difficult to see how making taxation more punitive on this narrow band of people would resolve the ills of an unproductive and under invested in UK workforce.

    The government could build homes and sell them and earn lots of money. Solving, the housing crisis and up skilling workers at the same time.
    It could invest in proper social care to unblock the beds in hospitals to improve the health of the nation.
    It could get to grips with the striking train conductors and now drivers that are preventing people from getting to work and being productive. (But Labour are in the pocket of the unions - not the struggling commuters)

    The government aren't sorting it out, but labour aren't offering an alternative because Corbyn et al are more interested what constitutes anti semitism or dissenting voices in the PLP. Labour needs to invest in Britain to make Britain productive and communicate that vision loud and clear.
  9. Standard memberfinnegan
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    13 Dec '16 11:101 edit
    Originally posted by invigorate
    Its only really the top 20% that pay in more than they take from the state. It is difficult to see how making taxation more punitive on this narrow band of people would resolve the ills of an unproductive and under invested in UK workforce.

    The government could build homes and sell them and earn lots of money. Solving, the housing crisis and up skillin ...[text shortened]... eeds to invest in Britain to make Britain productive and communicate that vision loud and clear.
    Corbyn et al are more interested what constitutes anti semitism or dissenting voices in the PLP.


    Well I am not clear why you address this attack to Corbyn rather than the people (especialy in the PLP) attacking the democratically elected party leader. I completely agree that while these internal battles continue the party will be hobbled in its fight against the Tories.

    You will notice that Amaurote presents himself as a staunch Labour Party member while peddling an unending stream of schismatic abuse, including appeals to late 19th century and totally archaic voices long forgotten outside the tiny world of the old party machine. The madness is the way such people accuse Corbyn of being ideologically extreme and unrealistic. It is the right of the party which is dogmatic beyond all reason in the face of electoral wipeout.

    Ralph Milliband in 1972 wrote this immortal line: "Of political parties claiming socialism to be their aim, the Labour Party has always been one of the most dogmatic – not about socialism but about the parliamentary system. Empirical and flexible about all else, its leaders have always made devotion to that system their fixed point of reference and the conditioning factor of their political behaviour." In short, the PLP imagine that they are doing us a favour by occupying their seats on the green benches whle farting and belching, while Corbyn is advocating that Labour get re-engaged with the people and the issues that matter. That is why he has obtained such huge mandates within the party and why the PLP hate and fear him.
  10. Standard memberAmaurote
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    15 Dec '16 18:361 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    On deselection and anti austerity you are just insisting on continuing shismatic abuse of Corbyn without in reality supporting your claims. Verbosity does not equate to reasoning. You are just throwing out more and more misinformation which, of course, would be tedious to deconstruct.

    Sadly you are a great help and support to the Tories.
    What misinformation?

    Since you can't be bothered to respond to straightforward arguments, I'll try cablese:

    In Finnegan's terms, signing up to Tory spending plans, advocating borrowing 250 billion pounds from the private sector and refusing to raise higher rate tax bands = "anti-austerity".

    Jeremy Corbyn = "anti-austerity"

    25,000 examples of anti-semitic abuse plus countless examples everyday of pro-Corbyn antisemitism = not evidence.

    Tom Watson meeting elected Israeli politicians and advocating peace = cynical Zionist plot and guilt by association.

    Jeremy Corbyn mourning IRA terrorists and sharing platform with Hamas = nothing to see here, stop trying to infer guilt by association, move on.

    The SNP pro-privatization agenda, use of taxpayers money to benefit middle-class students at the expense of working-class students, + refusal to raise higher-rate taxes, + proposing 3% corporation tax cuts + freezing council taxes for years at the cost of public services = "anti-austerity" and/or "left-wing".

    Guild socialism advocating worker democracy alongside consumer democracy minus wage slavery = "right-wing".

    Vast body of Labour opinion from right through mainstream to hard left opposing Jeremy Corbyn because of his inability to poll well, organize, produce policy or persuade = "neoliberals".

    That's pretty funny.

    Tell you what, I enjoyed Diane Abbott suggestion that we'll be neck and neck with the Tories in less than a year. As a Corbynista you presumably back this up.

    I'll bookmark this page. In a year we'll doubtless come back to a resurgent social movement, ten per cent leads in the polls, Labour setting the agenda, Theresa May pegged back to 30%, and you can rightly tell me how wrong I was.

    Or maybe, just maybe, it'll be the same old porridge, the same incoherence and inaudibility, the same awful poll ratings and indifference to electoral reality, and you people will finally begin to realize just what you've done to the party's chances in the name of the phoney radicalism that is "anti-austerity".
  11. Standard memberAmaurote
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    15 Dec '16 20:341 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Corbyn et al are more interested what constitutes anti semitism or dissenting voices in the PLP.


    Well I am not clear why you address this attack to Corbyn rather than the people (especialy in the PLP) attacking the democratically elected party leader. I completely agree that while these internal battles continue the party will be hobbled ...[text shortened]... at is why he has obtained such huge mandates within the party and why the PLP hate and fear him.
    There have been no internal party battles since the chicken coup.

    In case you haven't noticed, Labour MPs hostile to Corbyn have been very silent since the second leadership election. The only internal party battles of note are in Momentum, which is external to the party.

    This isn't attributable to altruism: they're simply pursuing the successful strategy pursued by the right of the party in the run-up to the 1983 election: be quiet, don't rock the boat or give the leadership any excuses for failure, and let the hard left dig its own grave.

    It's working: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/11/labour-war-jeremy-corbyn-opponents-control-constituencies
  12. Standard memberAmaurote
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    17 Dec '16 09:52
    Originally posted by finnegan
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJmo2_a4RJ8

    JC4PM for me too.
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