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  1. Joined
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    16 Jul '16 21:161 edit
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/07/16/turkeys-last-hope-dies.html

    It looks as though the recent coup in Turkey was the last hope of preventing Turkey becoming like Iran.

    Friday night’s failed coup was Turkey’s last hope to stop the Islamization of its government and the degradation of its society. Reflexively, Western leaders rushed to condemn a coup attempt they refused to understand. Their reward will be a toxic Islamist regime at the gates of Europe.

    Our leaders no longer do their basic homework.The media relies on experts-by-Wikipedia. Except for PC platitudes, our schools ignore the world beyond our shores. Deluged with unreliable information, citizens succumb to the new superstitions of the digital age.

    So a great country is destroyed by Islamist hardliners before our eyes—and our president praises its “democracy.”

    That tragically failed coup was a forlorn hope, not an attempt to take over a country. Turkey is not a banana republic in which the military grasps the reins for its own profit. For almost a century, the Turkish armed forces have been the guardians of the country’s secular constitution. Most recently, coups in 1960, 1971 and 1980 (with “non-coup” pressure in 1997) saw the military intervene to prevent the country’s collapse.


    Erdogan will use the coup as an excuse to accelerate the Islamization of his country and to lead Turkey deeper into the darkness engulfing the Muslim world. His vision is one of a neo-Ottoman megalomaniac.

    Each time, the military returned the government to civilian rule as soon as that proved practical. My own first experience of Turkey came just before the 1980 coup. Turkey was broke and broken. The economy was in such a shambles that you could not buy a cup of Turkish coffee in Istanbul. I walked because taxis and public transportation had no fuel. Murderous political violence raged. Reluctantly, the generals stepped in and saved their country.

    Friday night, mid-grade officers led a desperate effort to rescue their country again. They failed. The West cheered. Soon enough, we’ll mourn.

    The coup leaders made disastrous mistakes, the worst of which was to imagine that the absence of President Erdogan from Ankara, the capital, presented the perfect opportunity. Wrong. In a coup, the key is to seize the leaders you mean to overthrow (as well as control of the media). Instead of fleeing into exile, Erdogan was able to return in triumph.

    So who is the man our own president rushed to support because he was “democratically elected?” Recep Tayyip Erdogan is openly Islamist and affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which President Obama appears to believe represents the best hope for the Middle East. But the difference between ISIS, Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood isn’t one of purpose, but merely of manners: Muslim Brothers wash the blood off their hands before they sit down to dinner with their dupes.

    With barely a murmured “Tut-tut!” from Western leaders, Erdogan has dismantled Turkey’s secular constitution (which the military is duty-bound to protect). His “democracy” resembles Putin’s, not ours. Key opposition figures have been driven into exile or banned. Opposition parties have been suppressed. Recent elections have not been held so much as staged. And Erdogan has torn the fresh scab from the Kurdish wound, fostering civil war in Turkey’s southeast for his own political advantage.

    Erdogan has packed Turkey’s courts with Islamists. He appointed pliant, pro-Islamist generals and admirals, while staging show trials of those of whom he wished to rid the country. He has de facto, if not yet de jure, curtailed women’s freedoms. He dissolved the wall between mosque and state (Friday night, he used mosques’ loudspeakers to call his supporters into the streets). Not least, he had long allowed foreign fighters to transit Turkey to join ISIS and has aggressively backed other extremists whom he believed he could manage.

    And his diplomatic extortion racket has degraded our own military efforts against ISIS.

    That’s the man President Obama supports.

    And the leaders of the ill-fated coup? What did they stand for? Mustafa Kemal Ataturk’s legacy and a secular constitution. One of the great men of the last century, Ataturk (an innovative general by background) pulled Turkey from the wreckage of World War One, abolished the caliphate, suppressed fanatical religious orders, gave women legal rights and social protections, banned the veil, promoted secular education for all citizens of Turkey, strongly advocated Westernization and modernization…and promoted a democratic future.

    The officers who led the collapsed coup stood for all those things. President Obama and Secretary of State Kerry opposed them.

    By Saturday morning, it was clear that the mullahs and mobs behind Erdogan had won. Erdogan will use the coup as an excuse to accelerate the Islamization of his country and to lead Turkey deeper into the darkness engulfing the Muslim world. His vision is one of a neo-Ottoman megalomaniac.

    NATO, which operates by consensus, will find itself embracing a poisonous snake. New crises will reawaken old fears in southeastern Europe, which western European states will dismiss condescendingly, further crippling the badly limping European Union. Syria will continue to bleed. And educated, secular Turks will find themselves in a situation like unto that of German liberals in the 1930s. We may see new and unexpected wars.

    A desperate, ill-planned coup has failed in Turkey. Here comes the darkness.
  2. Joined
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    16 Jul '16 21:49
    Turkey used to be referred to as a moderate country in terms of Islamic influence, but I'm beginning to think that any large population of Muslims are incapable of sustaining a moderate government. Eventually they become radicalized.
  3. Joined
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    16 Jul '16 23:592 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Turkey used to be referred to as a moderate country in terms of Islamic influence, but I'm beginning to think that any large population of Muslims are incapable of sustaining a moderate government. Eventually they become radicalized.
    The radicalisation is situational: for the best part of forty years, money has been pouring into the wider Muslim world from oil-rich Salafites in the Gulf. If oil had been discovered under Ataturk's Turkey rather than in the domain of the House of Saud, we'd probably now be talking about how efficiently Islam had secularised.

    The article is right about one thing: it was a massive tactical error for the plotters to try to take over the cities first, rather than neutralising Erdogan. If I were a military officer trying to stage a coup in Turkey, and knowing what a personality cult the AKP is, I'd have hit Erdogan first. I'd have staged a false-flag terrorist attack (we could decide later whether ISIS or the Kurds should be blamed) on his hotel in Marmaris while he was still sitting on the balcony enjoying his sea bass and fruit juice. I'd have had the tanks ready to roll into Istanbul and Ankara, but they wouldn't move until I'd had confirmation that Erdogan was dead. By the time I announced anything on national television, I would have wanted to be able to say that the President had been killed by terrorists and that the army had therefore been obliged to take an active role to maintain order. I would have expressed my willingness, nevertheless, to co-operate with Turkey's legitimate, elected parliamentary government (on the unspoken assumption that an AKP without Erdogan would probably begin to shrivel soon enough), but might have proposed that a multi-party unity government would be the best bet, in these tough times.

    The fact that this didn't happen leaves me wondering, along with some Turks, if this wasn't actually staged at Erdogan's behest. At the very least, I wonder if he knew about it in advance and decided to wait in the knowledge that it would give him the excuse to cement his authority. The coup's obvious incompetence suggests that there could be more than meets the eye here, though incompetence for its own sweet sake should never be ruled out.
  4. Joined
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    17 Jul '16 10:202 edits
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    The radicalisation is situational: for the best part of forty years, money has been pouring into the wider Muslim world from oil-rich Salafites in the Gulf. If oil had been discovered under Ataturk's Turkey rather than in the domain of the House of Saud, we'd probably now be talking about how efficiently Islam had secularised.

    The article is right about ...[text shortened]... e than meets the eye here, though incompetence for its own sweet sake should never be ruled out.
    Even if they had killed Erdogan and stopped the Islamists, I'm not sure in the end it would have mattered much. I'm thinking all that could be accomplished is the eventual inevitable. which is:

    Islam + democracy = Sharia law and radicalization
  5. Cape Town
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    17 Jul '16 13:26
    Originally posted by whodey
    Friday night’s failed coup was Turkey’s last hope to stop the Islamization of its government and the degradation of its society.
    I take it that if the republicans win the US election and the christianization of its government continues with the degradation of society that goes with it, you will be planing a coup?

    The reality is that military coup's are never ever a good thing - even when sponsored by the CIA. Actually especially when sponsored by the CIA.
  6. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
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    17 Jul '16 13:28
    A turkey coup.

    Seriously... No one's saying it...
  7. Joined
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    17 Jul '16 14:14
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/07/16/turkeys-last-hope-dies.html

    It looks as though the recent coup in Turkey was the last hope of preventing Turkey becoming like Iran.

    Friday night’s failed coup was Turkey’s last hope to stop the Islamization of its government and the degradation of its society. Reflexively, Western leaders rushed to condemn a co ...[text shortened]... xpected wars.

    A desperate, ill-planned coup has failed in Turkey. Here comes the darkness.
    tto
    To all the British people that voted to leave the EU, I thank you .
    With a misguided and guilty struck Germany at the helm of the EU god knows what is going to happen .
  8. Standard membervivify
    rain
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    17 Jul '16 14:17
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    A turkey coup.

    Seriously... No one's saying it...
    It makes me Hungary.
  9. Standard membervivify
    rain
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    17 Jul '16 14:23
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    A turkey coup.

    Seriously... No one's saying it...
    Turkey's don't coup...they gobble.

    I'll stop now.
  10. Joined
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    18 Jul '16 19:52
    Looks like Turkey would be an excellent addition to the EU
  11. Germany
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    18 Jul '16 20:59
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Looks like Turkey would be an excellent addition to the EU
    The recent events made the minuscule possibility that Turkey would join the EU within the next two decades or so even more remote.
  12. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
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    18 Jul '16 21:40
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The recent events made the minuscule possibility that Turkey would join the EU within the next two decades or so even more remote.
    Especially with Erdogan going on about the death penalty.
  13. Joined
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    18 Jul '16 21:41
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Looks like Turkey would be an excellent addition to the EU
    What a lovely ,peaceful country that upholds human rights and free speech .
    A nice stable friendly Muslim country .
    Kazet and Duchess should live there ,it's "right up their street "
  14. Joined
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    18 Jul '16 23:11
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The recent events made the minuscule possibility that Turkey would join the EU within the next two decades or so even more remote.
    Flood Europe with more immigrants and I say Turkey will be in the EU with no problem, or is that Europe joining the Middle Eastern Union?

    I get so confused. 😞
  15. Germany
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    19 Jul '16 07:46
    Originally posted by phil3000
    What a lovely ,peaceful country that upholds human rights and free speech .
    A nice stable friendly Muslim country .
    Kazet and Duchess should live there ,it's "right up their street "
    I'm an atheist, why would a "Muslim country" be "right up [my] street" just because I am not a despicable bigot?
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