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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Mar '13 14:57
    Over the weekend, while we were at my mother's house, my 7 year old daughter asked me if I wanted to play with a bunch of toy soldiers that were in a big container. About half of them appeared to be Indians and the rest appeared to be ordinary foot soldiers.

    As we were setting it up, my daughter says "I'll be the Indians and you can be the bad guys." I asked, "Who are the bad guys?" and she answers "the cowboys" almost incredulous that I wouldn't be able to figure that out on my own.

    I asked, completely innocently "Why are the cowboys the bad guys?" And she says "because they attacked and stole land from the Indians and gave them blankets that made them sick." I asked "Did the Indians ever attack people too?" and she answers "Well, they wouldn't have had to if the white people hadn't come to take their land."

    I had to smile at how the system has changed. I don't recall ever discussing these issues with her. Everything from that conversation she must have picked up at school. I know that in her second grade class, they read a story about Squanto, but I had no idea it was being taught in these terms.

    When I was a kid, we played cowboys and Indians too, except that then, the cowboys were the good guys.

    If this change a positive step in our culture and educational system? Is there a happy medium somewhere between the ideas that one side or the other were the good guys and the other were the bad guys?
  2. 06 Mar '13 15:07
    I would be hesistant to draw general conclusions about culture or education based on your anecdotal experience.
  3. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    06 Mar '13 15:07
    Originally posted by sh76
    Over the weekend, while we were at my mother's house, my 7 year old daughter asked me if I wanted to play with a bunch of toy soldiers that were in a big container. About half of them appeared to be Indians and the rest appeared to be ordinary foot soldiers.

    As we were setting it up, my daughter says "I'll be the Indians and you can be the bad guys." I asked ...[text shortened]... at one side or the other were the good guys and the other were the bad guys?
    The ability to accept that your own side is sometimes the 'bad guys' is very important.
  4. 06 Mar '13 15:09
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The ability to accept that your own side is sometimes the 'bad guys' is very important.
    Perhaps a more important realization on the path to maturity is accepting that there is only one side - humanity.
  5. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    06 Mar '13 15:30
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Perhaps a more important realization on the path to maturity is accepting that there is only one side - humanity.
    Speciesism rears its ugly head.
  6. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    06 Mar '13 15:40
    Originally posted by sh76
    Over the weekend, while we were at my mother's house, my 7 year old daughter asked me if I wanted to play with a bunch of toy soldiers that were in a big container. About half of them appeared to be Indians and the rest appeared to be ordinary foot soldiers.

    As we were setting it up, my daughter says "I'll be the Indians and you can be the bad guys." I asked ...[text shortened]... at one side or the other were the good guys and the other were the bad guys?
    There may be a happy medium here, but I doubt it will make those on either side of this issue very happy.
  7. 06 Mar '13 15:42
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I would be hesistant to draw general conclusions about culture or education based on your anecdotal experience.
    That is not an isolated anecdote. The mandatory State run educational system is as much a brainwashing tool in the United States as it was in the Soviet Union.
  8. 06 Mar '13 16:08
    Originally posted by sh76
    Over the weekend, while we were at my mother's house, my 7 year old daughter asked me if I wanted to play with a bunch of toy soldiers that were in a big container. About half of them appeared to be Indians and the rest appeared to be ordinary foot soldiers.

    As we were setting it up, my daughter says "I'll be the Indians and you can be the bad guys." I asked ...[text shortened]... at one side or the other were the good guys and the other were the bad guys?
    Ask yourself if you would post the same concern if she had identified the bad guys as the "Indians." You had that view and yet you turned out to be a perfectly reasonable person, no? Her world view is just at a different place than yours was. One thing I would suggest is in the next parent teacher meeting see if you can have a look at the teacher's lesson plan on the subject and see if you agree with it. (If the teacher doesn't have a lesson plan or is unwilling to let you see it, have a talk with the principal.)
  9. 06 Mar '13 16:10
    Originally posted by normbenign
    That is not an isolated anecdote. The mandatory State run educational system is as much a brainwashing tool in the United States as it was in the Soviet Union.
    Yes in your game, the bad guys are the government.
  10. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Mar '13 18:43 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    Ask yourself if you would post the same concern if she had identified the bad guys as the "Indians." You had that view and yet you turned out to be a perfectly reasonable person, no? Her world view is just at a different place than yours was. One thing I would suggest is in the next parent teacher meeting see if you can have a look at the teacher's lesson plan ...[text shortened]... esn't have a lesson plan or is unwilling to let you see it, have a talk with the principal.)
    Well, I'm not really concerned about it. I just thought it was interesting and I brought it up for discussion.

    I'm not bothered by the message the teacher is sending. There's certainly some truth to it, one way or the other.

    I'm trying to train my children to think critically and to verify. So, it doesn't really bother me if a teacher tells the student something I disagree with. By the same token, I'm not afraid to tell my daughter that I disagree with her teacher and I have no intention of forcing either opinion on her. Reasonable people can disagree and people should think about, verify and question what they are told.

    Even when it comes to things like going to sleep, I never say "because I said so." When she asks me why she has to go to sleep at bedtime, I say that young people require sleep for their health, she needs to be able to concentrate at school, etc., and if she wants to debate me, she can. Eventually, I have to cut off debate because there isn't time to debate forever, but I never mind when she argues with me, as long as she does so respectfully and I never dismiss her opinion just because she's 7 years old.
  11. 06 Mar '13 19:00
    Originally posted by sh76
    Well, I'm not really concerned about it. I just thought it was interesting and I brought it up for discussion.

    I'm not bothered by the message the teacher is sending. There's certainly some truth to it, one way or the other.

    I'm trying to train my children to think critically and to verify. So, it doesn't really bother me if a teacher tells the student s ...[text shortened]... e does so respectfully and I never dismiss her opinion just because she's 7 years old.
    There is no happy medium.

    There are three sides to every story.

    One side, the other side and then the truth.

    In my opinion it is very important to give the unvarnished truth.

    Facts are what matter, not anecdotes.

    When you are furnished with the facts it is only then
    that you can come to a reasonable conclusion yourself.

    Provided that you are of an age to determine right from wrong
    good from bad and fact from fiction.

    Your daughter sounds like a real smart kid.

    It is important to be given the facts and the truth.

    From that basis she can establish her opinions and learn further.

    There is absolutely no point in dressing up the truth or sweetening it
    in any way simply because it suits someone else to do so.
  12. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    06 Mar '13 19:18
    Originally posted by sh76
    I just thought it was interesting and I brought it up for discussion.

    I'm not bothered by the message the teacher is sending. There's certainly some truth to it, one way or the other.

    I'm trying to train my children to think critically and to verify. .
    I think you have a great attitude.

    Up until at least 11 years-old kids still look at things in black and white. My 11
    year-old is always asking about movies "Who are the bad guys?"

    I normally respond with "Who do you think"
    OR
    "They both think they are the goodies"

    The question arose recently while watching TROY on dvd! Who are the goodies?
    We had quite a debate!
  13. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    06 Mar '13 19:21
    Originally posted by normbenign
    That is not an isolated anecdote. The mandatory State run educational system is as much a brainwashing tool in the United States as it was in the Soviet Union.
    What! Will these brains ne'er be clean?!
  14. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    06 Mar '13 19:26
    As a child I participated in 'Cowboys and Indians'. I worshipped the 'Indians'; not sure whether that had anything to do with the fact that girls were mostly relegated to the Indian side. Sometimes there were Cowboy vs Cowboy shoot-outs. There was never a good or bad side - just, sometimes, a (soi-disant) strong side and a weak side. The strange thing is that we never played 'Redcoats and Zulus' or any other permutation of the prevailing historical tensions in the country. On my own I would take on the persona of a Boer guerilla, but never in company.
  15. 06 Mar '13 21:00
    Originally posted by JS357
    Yes in your game, the bad guys are the government.
    That is controlled by Multinationals and the banking sector. Fact.