Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 22 Aug '11 06:05
    Republicans are wigging out over the possibility that the events in Libya will reflect positively on Obama's foreign policy, so they're trying to get a jump on the narrative.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/21/1009322/-Repubs-Scurry-to-Shamefully-Spin-Libya-Events
  2. 22 Aug '11 07:01 / 1 edit
    Of course, their criticism is somewhat lacking in consistency.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/21/1009308/-GOP-Candidates-Got-Some-Splainin-to-Do?via=blog_638999

    Meanwhile, in Libya:

    Tripoli's main Green Square, once the site of pro-Qaddafi rallies, was renamed Martyrs Square for the victims of Qaddafi's brutal rule. Live feeds showed pure joy as Libyans took to the streets to celebrate his defeat. "Libya is free!'' they chanted. Others shouted: "Thank you, USA! Thank you, Obama! Merci, Sarkozy!"

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/obama-momentum-against-qaddafi-has-reached-tipping-point--20110821
  3. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    22 Aug '11 11:24
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Republicans are wigging out over the possibility that the events in Libya will reflect positively on Obama's foreign policy, so they're trying to get a jump on the narrative.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/21/1009322/-Repubs-Scurry-to-Shamefully-Spin-Libya-Events
    Of course the danger was that after Democrats made a career out of attacking Bush's rare (only?) good decision in toppling Hussein, that Obama would make the wrong decision and refuse to help topple Qaddafi. Obama did do the right thing, and that is to his credit.

    The deeper question regarding the Congress of the United States is how it is exactly that organization cannot seem to comprehend the obvious truth that democracy is better than dictatorship. You would think, allegedly being Americans (most have not had their birth certificates properly scrutinized), that members of Congress could not be that dense.

    But Congress as a body doesn't get it, and so they often would rather play politics than than take the steps needed to get rid of dictators and other criminal regimes -- a step which would do more to ensure our security than 10 times the current number of TSA officials.
  4. 22 Aug '11 11:35
    Don't celebrate so quickly. We don't know that the rebel government will be favorable.
  5. 22 Aug '11 12:12
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Republicans are wigging out over the possibility that the events in Libya will reflect positively on Obama's foreign policy, so they're trying to get a jump on the narrative.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/21/1009322/-Repubs-Scurry-to-Shamefully-Spin-Libya-Events
    Figures
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Aug '11 13:22
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Of course the danger was that after Democrats made a career out of attacking Bush's rare (only?) good decision in toppling Hussein, that Obama would make the wrong decision and refuse to help topple Qaddafi. Obama did do the right thing, and that is to his credit.

    The deeper question regarding the Congress of the United States is how it is exactly th ...[text shortened]... which would do more to ensure our security than 10 times the current number of TSA officials.
    The old "Spruce - the West should Attack Almost Everybody Else" Doctrine.

    Doesn't look like the self-appointed leaders of the Libyan "revolution" are in any hurry to establish "democracy":

    El-Gamaty [rebel spokesman] told CNN Monday that it will take 18 to 20 months to create a political framework for a new Libyan government.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/08/22/libya.war/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    That's a long time to "create a political framework".
  7. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    22 Aug '11 13:31
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The old "Spruce - the West should Attack Almost Everybody Else" Doctrine.

    Doesn't look like the self-appointed leaders of the Libyan "revolution" are in any hurry to establish "democracy":

    El-Gamaty [rebel spokesman] told CNN Monday that it will take 18 to 20 months to create a political framework for a new Libyan go ...[text shortened]... tml?hpt=hp_t1

    That's a long time to "create a political framework".
    Is it really? How long should it take?

    South Africa took four years from Mandela's release until the first elections. Was that too long?
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Aug '11 13:46
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Is it really? How long should it take?

    South Africa took four years from Mandela's release until the first elections. Was that too long?
    Yes it was. And it only took that long because of the intransigence of the rump apartheid government.

    "Free" Libya has no such problem to contend with. Your rebels have been in control of some areas for almost 6 months (have any elections anywhere for anything been held?); why aren't democratic institutions already in place? Egypt is proceeding to elections within a year of their revolution; why will it take Libya so long to even decide what type of government they will have? And in the meantime, who will rule it? A bunch of self-appointed "leaders", most with ties to the Gaddhafi regime?

    Some "democracy".
  9. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    22 Aug '11 14:07
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Yes it was. And it only took that long because of the intransigence of the rump apartheid government.

    "Free" Libya has no such problem to contend with. Your rebels have been in control of some areas for almost 6 months (have any elections anywhere for anything been held?); why aren't democratic institutions already in place? Egypt is ...[text shortened]... ed "leaders", most with ties to the Gaddhafi regime?

    Some "democracy".
    So if democracy takes too long to establish, it isn't worth it? I would say it is worth it no matter how long it takes.

    You are a real sourpuss when it comes to democratic revolution. It has to be done EXACTLY the right way (according to you) each time or you winge.

    Here, the test phrase is: "Syria Next!"

    Reaction under the Spruce Doctrine: "It is time for all democratic nations to fulfill their humanitarian obligation to the Syrian people, who clearly crave self-determination, to assist in overthrowing the Assad regime which holds power without a clear and defensible popular mandate established via free and fair elections."

    Your reply?
  10. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Aug '11 14:09 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    So if democracy takes too long to establish, it isn't worth it? I would say it is worth it no matter how long it takes.

    You are a real sourpuss when it comes to democratic revolution. It has to be done EXACTLY the right way (according to you) each time or you winge.

    Here, the test phrase is: "Syria Next!"

    Reaction under the Spruce Doctrine: "It ...[text shortened]... ear and defensible popular mandate established via free and fair elections."

    Your reply?
    Stack up the bodies.

    How come you weren't pushing for the troops to be deployed to Bahrain? In favor of "democracy" that is?
  11. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    22 Aug '11 14:10
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Yes it was. And it only took that long because of the intransigence of the rump apartheid government.

    "Free" Libya has no such problem to contend with. Your rebels have been in control of some areas for almost 6 months (have any elections anywhere for anything been held?); why aren't democratic institutions already in place? Egypt is ...[text shortened]... ed "leaders", most with ties to the Gaddhafi regime?

    Some "democracy".
    So how long should a successful democratic transition take? Please give examples.

    'No such problem to contend with'. That's a conversation stopper.
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Aug '11 14:12
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    So how long should a successful democratic transition take? Please give examples.

    'No such problem to contend with'. That's a conversation stopper.
    Selective reading and quoting, a BDN speciality. Along with a failure to respond to legitimate inquiries.

    I just gave an example I believe. And it's right next door to Libya.
  13. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    22 Aug '11 14:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Selective reading and quoting, a BDN speciality. Along with a failure to respond to legitimate inquiries.

    I just gave an example I believe. And it's right next door to Libya.
    Egypt already has a constitution - Libya's has to be written from scratch, a process of negotiation that will surely take some time. But since the election hasn't happened yet, it doesn't count as an example. So apart from an impending election compromised by the fact that it's orchestrated by the military authorities (SCAF) - what examples have you got of a swift, successful democratic transition? I really would like to know.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    22 Aug '11 14:28 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Egypt already has a constitution - Libya's has to be written from scratch, a process of negotiation that will surely take some time. But since the election hasn't happened yet, it doesn't count as an example. So apart from an impending election compromised by the fact that it's orchestrated by the military authorities (SCAF) - what examples have you got of a swift, successful democratic transition? I really would like to know.
    That's holding yer breath until you turn blue; the parliamentary elections are next month and the Presidential election in October (I believe) - that's within a year of the revolution. That qualifies as a "swift, successful democratic transition". And Egypt didn't require overwhelming Western military air power to effect their revolution, so it's far less "compromised" than the quasi coup d'etat in Libya.

    EDIT: Libya also has a Constitution.

    EDIT2: Tunisia has elections scheduled for October as well.
  15. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    22 Aug '11 14:38
    1 year: "swift", "successful"
    Estimation of 1 year and a half: "Why so long? WHY?! WHY????!!?"

    Funny.