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  1. 23 Jun '17 19:57 / 1 edit
    Cuba's health care system has been the object of both much praise and criticism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba

    "As can be seen is this section, the issue of the effectiveness of the
    Cuban health system is politically polarized. Thus, as William Ventres
    put it in his review of five books about Cuba's medical system
    (including one by Katherine Hirschfeld; see below), it is "difficult to
    make sense of the reality of Cuban health care."

    "Katherine Hirschfeld, an anthropology professor at the University of Oklahoma,
    did her Ph.D. thesis on the Cuban health system, spending nine months
    conducting ethnographic work in Cuba in the late 1990s. According to Hirschfeld,
    "public criticism of the government is a crime in Cuba", which means
    that "formally eliciting critical narratives about health care would be
    viewed as a criminal act both for me as a researcher, and for people
    who spoke openly with me".[81] Nevertheless, she was able to hear
    from many Cubans, including health professionals, "serious complaints
    about the intrusion of politics into medical treatment and health care
    decision-making".[81] She points out that "there is no right to privacy in
    the physician-patient relationship in Cuba, no patients’ right of informed
    consent, no right to refuse treatment, and no right to protest or sue for
    malpractice".[81] In her view medical care in Cuba can be dehumanizing."

    Hirschfeld explains also that the Cuban Ministry of Health (MINSAP)
    sets statistical targets that are viewed as production quotas.
    The most guarded is infant mortality rate. To illustrate this, Hirschfeld
    describes a case where a doctor said that if the ultrasound examination
    revealed "some fetal abnormalities", the woman "would have an abortion",
    to avoid an increase in the infant mortality rate."

    _Health, Politics, and Revolution in Cuba Since 1898_ by Katherine Hirschfeld (2007).
    A summary of her book (which I have read) may be found in her article:
    "Re-examining the Cuban Health Care System: A Qualitative Critique."

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242567776_Re-examining_the_Cuban_Health_Care_System_Towards_a_Qualitative_Critique
  2. 23 Jun '17 20:07
    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/06/201265115527622647.html

    "The truths and tales of Cuban healthcare.
    The state-run system has been praised, but many specialists now fear
    they are falling behind international standards."
    --Lucia Newman

    "Much of this praise is well-deserved. Despite its scarce resources, Cuba has one of the
    world's lowest infant mortality rates - just slightly lower than that of the US. Life expectancy
    is 77.5 years, one of the world's highest. And until not so long ago, there was one
    doctor for every 170 citizens - the highest patient-per-doctor ratio in the world.

    Of course, the government can afford so many doctors because they are paid extremely
    low salaries by international standards. The average is between $30 and $50 per month."

    "By the time I moved to Cuba in 1997, there were serious shortages of medicine - from
    simple aspirin to more badly needed drugs.
    Ironically, many medicines that cannot be found at a pharmacy are easily bought on the
    black market. Some doctors, nurses and cleaning staff smuggle the medicine out of the
    hospitals in a bid to make extra cash.
    Although medical attention remains free, many patients did and still do bring their
    doctors food, money or other gifts to get to the front of the queue or to guarantee an
    appointment for an X-ray, blood test or operation.
    If you do not have a contact or money to pay under the table, the waiting time for all but
    emergency procedures can be ridiculously long.
    Many Cubans complain that top-level government and Communist Party officials have
    access to VIP health treatment, while ordinary people must queue from dawn for a
    routine test, with no guarantee that the allotted numbers will not run out before it is their turn."

    "In all fairness, in the past five years, the government has made great efforts to improve
    hospitals and health centres, but again, lack of resources is making the process painfully slow.
    The system is free, but it is neither fast nor efficient for two important reasons.
    One is obviously the lack of financial resources, and the other - which is related to the
    first - is the "export" of doctors, nurses and dentists in exchange for hard currency."

    "One of the problems is that no small number of Cuban doctors have left the country
    looking for better opportunities abroad. They are considered deserters.
    But for all its shortcomings, Cubans do have better access to healthcare than the majority
    of those living in many "developing nations", where public health is shockingly inadequate."
  3. 23 Jun '17 20:13
    http://theconversation.com/is-the-cuban-healthcare-system-really-as-great-as-people-claim-69526

    "Is the Cuban healthcare system really as great as people claim?"
    --Rich Warner

    "As someone who trained as a doctor in Cuba, I’d like to give you an insider’s view.
    The Cuban healthcare system, borne out of its revolutionary socialist ideology, regards
    accessibility to healthcare as a fundamental right of its citizens. It focuses heavily on a
    preventative approach to medicine and offering the simplest check-up to the most
    complex surgery, free of charge. Dental care, medicines and even home visits from
    doctors are all covered by the system."

    "Is all of this just propaganda? My answer would be no. I had the opportunity to spend
    seven years in this country as a medical student and saw firsthand the positives as well
    as the negatives of this healthcare service.
    As an American citizen, I was always impressed by how much Cubans were able to
    accomplish with so little."

    "Cuban doctors generally remark that becoming a doctor in their country is not about
    the money but about the need to help others. This was one of the first things I was taught
    in medical school. Though a noble sentiment, this is a main issue with the Cuban model."

    "The island continues to offer hundreds of scholarships annually to foreign students
    including those from the US. These scholarships are generally open to students from
    low income families who may not have been able to attend medical school because of
    their socioeconomic background."

    "The Cuban healthcare service has stood the test of time. It has afforded a foreigner
    like myself the opportunity to study a career free of charge while many of my colleagues
    are thousands of dollars in debt after attending medical schools in the US. It ensures
    that open heart surgery doesn’t result in lifelong indebtedness."
  4. 26 Jun '17 06:40
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://theconversation.com/is-the-cuban-healthcare-system-really-as-great-as-people-claim-69526

    "Is the Cuban healthcare system really as great as people claim?"
    --Rich Warner

    "As someone who trained as a doctor in Cuba, I’d like to give you an insider’s view.
    The Cuban healthcare system, borne out of its revolutionary socialist ideology, regards ...[text shortened]... chools in the US. It ensures
    that open heart surgery doesn’t result in lifelong indebtedness."
    Do you cherrypick from the wiki source?

    Didn't you read this?

    <quote> "In 2000, Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan stated that "Cuba should be the envy of many other nations" adding that achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. "Cuba demonstrates how much nations can do with the resources they have if they focus on the right priorities - health, education, and literacy." <unquote>

    Cuba would have a better life if US got rid of the Cuba embargo.
  5. 27 Jun '17 02:40
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Do you cherrypick from the wiki source?

    Didn't you read this?

    <quote> "In 2000, Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan stated that "Cuba should be the envy of many other nations" adding that achievements in social development are impressive given the size of its gross domestic product per capita. "Cuba demonstrates how much nations can d ...[text shortened]... on, and literacy." <unquote>

    Cuba would have a better life if US got rid of the Cuba embargo.
    If FabianFnas had adequate reading comprehension, then he should know that the three
    views that I quoted are *diverse* (none entirely positive or entirely negative), ranging from
    generally negative to generally positive. I quoted *a range of diverse views*.

    Kofi Annan was far from being an academic specialist on health care in Cuba or even
    anyone with direct experience (as a consumer or provider) of health care in Cuba.
    And Cuba has changed significantly since 2000.
  6. 27 Jun '17 06:45
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    If FabianFnas had adequate reading comprehension, then he should know that the three
    views that I quoted are *diverse* (none entirely positive or entirely negative), ranging from
    generally negative to generally positive. I quoted *a range of diverse views*.

    Kofi Annan was far from being an academic specialist on health care in Cuba or even
    anyone wi ...[text shortened]... a consumer or provider) of health care in Cuba.
    And Cuba has changed significantly since 2000.
    I still think you are cherrypicking...
  7. 27 Jun '17 19:22
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I still think you are cherrypicking...
    FabianFnas keeps showing his poor reading comprehension and obstinate unwillingness to concede error.

    As far as I can infer, FabianFnas seems to believe that everything claimed by Cuba's government
    about health care should be accepted at face value. When Katherine Hirschfeld arrived in Cuba
    to do field work for her PhD, she initially expected her findings on health care to be very favorable.
    She soon became deeply disillusioned. She wrote that Cuba's government covered up
    an epidemic of dengue fever, lying both to the foreign media and its own people.
    She also wrote that a Cuban government official offered to help her advance in her academic
    career in the USA if she would reach conclusions of which Cuba's government approved.
  8. 27 Jun '17 19:30
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    FabianFnas keeps showing his poor reading comprehension and obstinate unwillingness to concede error.

    As far as I can infer, FabianFnas seems to believe that everything claimed by Cuba's government
    about health care should be accepted at face value. When Katherine Hirschfeld arrived in Cuba
    to do field work for her PhD, she initially expected her fin ...[text shortened]... academic
    career in the USA if she would reach conclusions of which Cuba's government approved.
    You don't know about my opinion about Cuba. Don't read in your own fears into my opinion. That shows more about you then about me.

    But what I do know is that they (the people) would be much better off if the embargo was lifted. It should be long ago, Obama started a process which was halted by the next president. What happened more than 50 years ago shouldn't affect a totally new generation now. Fidel is gone, Raoul needs some help. Let's not be longsighted.

    Let me ask, what is the alphabetism in USA? What is it in Cuba?
  9. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    27 Jun '17 19:31
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    FabianFnas keeps showing his poor reading comprehension and obstinate unwillingness to concede error.

    As far as I can infer, FabianFnas seems to believe that everything claimed by Cuba's government
    about health care should be accepted at face value. When Katherine Hirschfeld arrived in Cuba
    to do field work for her PhD, she initially expected her fin ...[text shortened]... academic
    career in the USA if she would reach conclusions of which Cuba's government approved.
    Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 911 saw a different Cuba it seems. He was trying to find medical help for those effected, first responders to 9/11 and went to Cuba, first to Guantanamo and got met with a siren announcing they would be arrested if they came any closer so they went to Havana and found doctors to help those patients, Americans.

    Of course the whole thing may have been done like that from the Cuban perspective as a publicity stunt but those people got help where they could not in the US.

    Personally, if I had to go to another country for medical treatment close to the US I would go to Canada or Mexico. The medical system in the US is broken and there is no fix available. The health so-called plan of Trump has been analyzed to show 20 + million Americans will be without insurance by 2020 if that cursed bill passes. Even Republicans are balking at it after that analysis came out.
  10. 27 Jun '17 19:43 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    You don't know about my opinion about Cuba. Don't read in your own fears into my opinion. That shows more about you then about me.

    But what I do know is that they (the people) would be much better off if the embargo was lifted. It should be long ago, Obama started a process which was halted by the next president. What happened more than 50 years ago sh ...[text shortened]... lp. Let's not be longsighted.

    Let me ask, what is the alphabetism in USA? What is it in Cuba?
    Why has FabianFnas apparently jumped to the absurd conclusion that I am a
    right-wing American who supports the USA's Cold War against Cuba?
    (Right-wing Americans here seem to hate me more than any other writer at RHP.)

    Some of my friends and relatives lived in nominally (somewhat diverse) Communist societies
    and know enough about the real advantages and disadvantages of these systems.

    Can FabianFnas comprehend that I quoted an African American who was trained (for free)
    as a doctor in Cuba and has a generally very positive view of Cuba's health care system?
  11. 27 Jun '17 19:53 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 911 saw a different Cuba it seems. He was trying to find medical help for those effected, first responders to 9/11 and went to Cuba, first to Guantanamo and got met with a siren announcing they would be arrested if they came any closer so they went to Havana and found doctors to help those patients, Americans.

    Of course the wh ...[text shortened]... 020 if that cursed bill passes. Even Republicans are balking at it after that analysis came out.
    Michael Moore presumably saw only what Cuba's government meant for him to see.

    Katherine Hirschfeld was a Spanish-speaking American PhD student who lived among ordinary people in Cuba.
    Over time, she became somewhat accepted and trusted by ordinary Cubans, who confided
    disturbing things to her that they would not have told a visiting American celebrity.

    In part on account of the US embargo, Cuba's health care facilities were painfully short of many necessities.
    Ordinary Cubans would bring their own bandages, if they could, to a hospital because they
    could not be certain of getting them there. It was common for ordinary Cubans to offer
    bribes in order to cut short extremely long waiting times for treatment, even in some serous cases.
    While Cuban hospitals had shortages of some important drugs, Katherine Hirschfeld claimed
    that Cuba was *exporting* these drugs because Cuba's government cared more about
    the foreign currency that it could get for them rather than about treating its own people.
  12. 27 Jun '17 21:01
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Why has FabianFnas apparently jumped to the absurd conclusion that I am a
    right-wing American who supports the USA's Cold War against Cuba?
    (Right-wing Americans here seem to hate me more than any other writer at RHP.)

    Some of my friends and relatives lived in nominally (somewhat diverse) Communist societies
    and know enough about the real advantages ...[text shortened]... free)
    as a doctor in Cuba and has a generally very positive view of Cuba's health care system?
    Again you claim that I have said or have opinions that you don't nothing about.
    And again you avoid questions I have that can lead to a healthy debate.

    If you don't want to have a sound discussion about an interesting subject, then just say so!
  13. 27 Jun '17 21:08 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Again you claim that I have said or have opinions that you don't nothing about.
    And again you avoid questions I have that can lead to a healthy debate.

    If you don't want to have a sound discussion about an interesting subject, then just say so!
    FabianFnas spews more disingenuous nonsense.

    I can read and draw reasonable inferences from what FabianFnas writes. I don't have to read his mind.
    Given his tone, it's clear enough that FabianFnas apparently wants to accuse me of
    supporting right-wing Americans who like to demonize everything about Communist Cuba.
  14. 28 Jun '17 04:21
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    FabianFnas spews more disingenuous nonsense.

    I can read and draw reasonable inferences from what FabianFnas writes. I don't have to read his mind.
    Given his tone, it's clear enough that FabianFnas apparently wants to accuse me of
    supporting right-wing Americans who like to demonize everything about Communist Cuba.
    Why do you see me as your personal enemy?
    Why don't you want to discuss?
    What is wrong...?
  15. 28 Jun '17 22:40
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Why do you see me as your personal enemy?
    Why don't you want to discuss?
    What is wrong...?
    FabianFnas is wrong. I don't yet perceive him as my 'personal enemy'.
    I regard FabianFnas as an arrogant fool whose 'reading comprehension' in English is so poor that
    he utterly fails to comprehend that I quoted a *diverse range of views* about health care in Cuba.
    FabianFnas is dead wrong in apparently accusing me of 'cherry picking' sources to
    support a particular political view about health care in Cuba.

    In short, I regard 'discussing' with FabianFnas as a waste of time because he keeps showing
    that he lacks basic comprehension not only of my words but also of his own in English.