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Debates Forum

  1. 25 Jan '17 22:10 / 2 edits
    First of all, 'White Feminism' is an ideology. It's not simply only about feminists being white.
    Not all white women are 'White Feminists'. Some white women disapprove of 'White Feminism'.
    At its worst, 'White Feminism' is like a white supremacist edition of feminism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feminism

    "White feminism is a pejorative term for forms of feminism that focus on
    the struggles of well-off white women while failing to address the distinct
    forms of oppression faced by women of colour and women lacking other privileges."

    As far as I know, Suzianne and Phranny are both American 'White Feminists'.

    https://dearwhitefeminists.wordpress.com/

    "Dear White Feminists: An Open Letter to the White Feminist Community"
    --the author identifies herself as a white woman who opposes 'White Feminism'

    "In my naivete I assumed that feminism = a struggle against ALL
    oppression, a movement inclusive of women of color. I could not
    understand why anybody would reject it. Good lord was I wrong."

    ".. the concerns of WoC [women of color] are trivialized and dismissed,
    in which WoC are attacked, in which major white feminist writers and
    voices basically join up to turn their collective backs on the concerns of
    women of color (often while claiming to do exactly the opposite)."

    That's typical dishonesty, hypocrisy, and racism by 'White Feminists'.

    " 'When you complain about racism in the feminist community,
    you cause divisions. So shut up and don’t complain.' "

    That's essentially what Suzianne has angrily told me.

    "We wrap ourselves up in all these cries for unity as if the division itself
    were the root of the problem. As if the problem is women of color having
    a problem with racism, and *not* the racism itself. It’s a way to sideline
    the issue of racism and shift the blame to the WoC who point it out.
    That way we never have to address it and actually fix it."

    That seems to be the position of Suzianne and Phranny toward me.

    "I’m sick of seeing white women dismiss the concerns of women of color.
    I’m sick of our self-righteous claims of inclusivity while we marginalize
    the voices of women of color when they speak out. ... I’m sick of us
    exercising our white privilege and then accusing our sisters of color of
    causing divisiveness when they refuse to submit to our racism. Mostly
    it’s unintentional racism by white women who want to believe that we
    are saving the world. But we are not. We’re oppressing and silencing
    the very people we talk so eloquently about being allies with. I’m sick of
    seeing so many of us refuse to take a stand for fear of alienating our
    white sisters."

    She acknowledges the racism within 'mainstream' American feminism.

    "We [White Feminists] are the enemy and the oppressors of WoC [women of color].
    Do you realize how wrong, how screwed up, and how profoundly anti-feminist that is?"

    Brava! This white American woman understands what I think of 'White Feminists'.
    As evidently close-minded 'White Feminists', Suzianne and Phranny
    have shown no comprehension at all.

    "No wonder so many WoC [women of color] are through with us [White Feminists]."

    I would be glad to march alongside the white American woman who wrote this.
    I would not march alongside the hypocritical 'White Feminists' Suzianne and Phranny.
    'White Feminism' is more of an enemy than an ally to non-white women.

    P.S. Thanks to one of my usual trolls for the instant 'thumbs down' within a few seconds
    of my posting this originally. That's not even enough time to skim over what I posted.
  2. 25 Jan '17 22:11 / 2 edits
    Thumbs down, no time to read any more race baited, windbag, troll theeads.
  3. 25 Jan '17 22:15 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Thumbs down, no time to read any more race baited, windbag, troll theeads.
    Obviously, the racist troll Whodey always likes to deny (knee-jerk) that white people
    could be racist. Whodey likes to argue that white people are the only victims of racism.
    So the extremely racist, sexist white American man Whodey apparently wants to deny
    that racism exists in mainstream white American feminism.

    Of course, the lying troll Whodey likes to deny that racism exists in the USA except
    against supposedly terribly oppressed white people like himself. Will Suzianne and
    Phranny welcome the sexist troll Whodey's support in denying racism?
  4. 25 Jan '17 22:17
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    So does the extremely racist, sexist white American man Whodey like to deny that
    racism exists in mainstream white American feminism?

    Of course, the lying troll Whodey likes to deny that racism exists in the USA except
    against supposedly terribly oppressed white people like himself. Will Suzianne and
    Phranny welcome the sexist troll Whodey's support in denying racism?
    I'm thinking most conversations you have is with yourself.
  5. 25 Jan '17 22:22
    Originally posted by whodey
    I'm thinking most conversations you have is with yourself.
    Will the racist, sexist troll Whodey join the 'White Feminists' Suzianne and Phranny on the Women's March?
  6. 25 Jan '17 22:26 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Will the racist, sexist troll Whodey join the 'White Feminists' Suzianne and Phranny on the Women's March?
    If it means pizza and a beer.......but only in a white male dominated beer hall, but I think that is only common sense.
  7. 25 Jan '17 22:32
    Here's another article by a white American woman who criticizes 'White Feminism'.

    https://mic.com/articles/125084/the-brutal-truth-every-white-feminist-needs-to-hear#.Bh81vgftz

    "The Brutal Truth Every White Feminist Needs to Hear"
    --Julie Zeilinger (11 September 2015)

    "Mainstream feminism has a major problem as old as the movement itself: prioritizing the
    experiences and voices of cisgender, straight, white women over women of color, queer
    women and those who fall outside this narrow identity. While the problem has persisted
    for decades, it now has a name: 'white feminism.' "

    "Even when diversity is acknowledged or accounted for, Ko said, it's often superficial and
    essentially meaningless. Simply including women of color in an event is not enough; it's
    often just tokenism. Ko said in many cases, this sort of visible inclusion only "values
    black and brown bodies but not their knowledge." "

    That's exactly what non-white women tend to experience from 'White Feminists'.
    Note that Asian women are not even mentioned, marginalized and ignored even among 'women of color'.

    " "I don't think we can make white mainstream feminism inclusive because it's not
    designed to be inclusive," Ko concluded. "Our exclusion as women of color isn't accidental.
    Diversity can't help White feminism. [White feminists] just need to move over." "

    Under 'White Feminism', white women expect (by natural right) to be always the leaders
    and they expect non-white women to be only their cheerleaders.

    Increasingly many non-white women have concluded they cannot work with 'White Feminism'.
  8. 25 Jan '17 22:45
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    First of all, 'White Feminism' is an ideology. It's not simply only about feminists being white.
    Not all white women are 'White Feminists'. Some white women disapprove of 'White Feminism'.
    At its worst, 'White Feminism' is like a white supremacist edition of feminism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feminism

    "White feminism is a pejorative te ...[text shortened]... econds
    of my posting this originally. That's not even enough time to skim over what I posted.
    You introduce a term, which you yourself call pejorative and then use it call names of people with whom you have a beef from another discussion. Now, no one should wonder whether or not you are a low quality human being.
  9. 25 Jan '17 22:47
    https://www.bustle.com/articles/120684-7-things-feminists-of-color-want-white-feminists-to-know

    "7 Things Feminists Of Color Want White Feminists To Know"
    --Gina Florio (4 December 2015)

    "...we've been talking more and more about White Feminism — feminism that blatantly
    leaves out the concerns and issues of women of color. It's not always a pleasant
    conversation to have, but it's a conversation that is more necessary now than ever."

    But 'White Feminists' like Suzianne and Phranny have shown no interest in this conversation.

    "The hard truth is white feminists are privileged in ways that feminists of color simply
    can't relate to, and it's not even really their fault. Yes, some white feminists don't
    acknowledge their privilege, and that's wrong. However, our society is also to blame for
    pretending that race relations in the U.S. are more advanced than they actually are."

    "1. There Is A Lot Of Racism In The History Of Feminism
    ...Moreover, white women leading equality campaigns in Washington, D.C. blatantly
    requested that black suffragists walk at the back of their parades. As a result, some
    black women chose not to march at all, refusing to participate in yet another form of segregation."

    "2. White Feminism Is Very Real
    White Feminism marginalizes women of color. White Feminism fails to give feminists
    of color a platform to discuss how racial inequality relates to gender inequality."

    "3. We're All Responsible For Making Feminism More Inclusive
    Often, women of privilege don't even realize that they're excluding other marginalized
    groups. This isn't an excuse for their behavior, but it is a chance for women of color to
    honestly tell feminists of privilege how their lack of self-awareness affects other women."

    "4. Some Women Of Color Don’t Feel Comfortable Calling Themselves Feminists
    Because of the tension between themselves and White Feminism, it’s no surprise that
    many women of color are uneasy identifying as feminists. This doesn’t mean that we
    aren’t lobbying for equal rights across the board; we just can’t ignore the racism in the
    movement's history. More importantly, we’re hyper-aware of the harmful discourse that
    has been developed in mainstream feminism, and we’re rightfully upset about the fact
    that our disenfranchisement is largely ignored."

    "5. Our Struggle Is Different Than Yours
    The plight of a middle-class, straight, white, American woman is not the same as that of
    an uneducated, gay, American woman of color. ... "One kind of feminism focuses on the
    policies that will help women integrate fully into the existing American system. The other
    recognizes the fundamental flaws in the system and seeks its complete and total transformation." "

    "6. We Want To Be Heard
    "...when women of color speak up truthfully about race and feminism, we’re either
    dismissed or “told that our complaints are ‘divisive,’ and that we should be focusing on
    the ‘real enemy.’” In other words, we shouldn't talk about how racial inequality and
    gender inequality intersect."

    "7. We Don't Want To Be Spoken For
    The overwhelming majority of writers, activists, and celebrities representing feminism
    are white women of privilege."

    Suzianne and Phranny need to pay attention to all these points, but I have no reason to believe that they will.
  10. 25 Jan '17 22:48 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by quackquack
    You introduce a term, which you yourself call pejorative and then use it call names of people with whom you have a beef from another discussion.
    Now, no one should wonder whether or not you are a low quality human being.
    The lying sexist troll Quackquack prefers to focus upon one word while dismissing all the
    rest of the content. which he presumably would be too stupid and prejudiced to comprehend.
    I would expect the racist troll Quackquack to do his utmost to deny that any white people,
    even American 'White Feminists', could be racist.
  11. 25 Jan '17 23:09 / 1 edit
    http://www.aaihs.org/an-open-letter-to-white-liberal-feminists/

    "An Open Letter to White Liberal Feminists"
    --Rhon Manigault-Bryant (19 November 2016)

    "Dear White Liberal Feminists, ... You have lamented the deep-seated divisiveness of
    this country. You have wept, you have hugged, and you have gingerly asked, “how are you?”
    And yet, your actions and inquiries are especially loaded, as much for their selfishness
    as their disingenuous nature. Your hugs and tears are of the self-soothing kind. Your
    inquiries seldom derive from a true desire to learn about how I, as an African American
    woman, really feel."

    "I find your overall shock at the role white women voters played in the election curious
    for its naïveté and annoying for its obtuseness."

    In fact, 52-53% of white women voted for Donald Trump. But the 'White Feminists'
    Suzianne and Phranny liked to pretend that few women voted for Donald Trump.
    I have not yet noticed any honest attempt by Suzianne or Phranny to come to terms
    with the reality that the majority of white American women voted for Donald Trump.

    "I am also thrilled about how this moment might signal an end to the dangerous,
    disingenuous version of feminism that so many (though not all) of you embrace, and
    which promotes white women’s success over and against anyone else. It is the brand
    and tenor of white feminism that allows for a recapitulation of white male patriarchy (à la
    white women merely behaving as white men in drag and putting on the farce of gender
    equity). It has long been your trope and now it is your bane."

    Brava! Contrary to what 'White Feminists' demand of them. non-white women are not content
    merely to have the crumbs that trickle down from what privileged white women can get.

    "But what will you do with this newfound dismay? How will you interrogate and sustain
    your recent enlightened perspective about how white women remain complicit in the
    oppressions of so many non-white folks, and even themselves? Given your responses
    this week and the last, I am already seeing a kind of writing on the wall—that of denial.
    So few of you have commented on the implications of large numbers of white women
    voting against Hillary Clinton. So few self-proclaimed white liberal feminists interrogate
    racism, imperialism, capitalism, and sexism because they benefit from it and are too
    busy being protected by it."

    Exactly. 'Liberal white feminists' are an untrustworthy ally at best in opposing racism.

    "What then, is the efficacy of this particular brand of white feminism in our current moment?
    If this most recent presidential election has revealed nothing else, it has shown that this
    specific ilk of white feminism must die."

    Agreed.

    "In this moment, if I have any regret, it is that you are trying to force me to be complicit in
    your self-denial, and that you expect me to do yet another kind of labor. You look, of all
    places, to me to help you deal with your feelings. Rather than holding up your weeping,
    weak selves, I have a few questions for you to consider: Who will you be in this hour?
    What will you do to enact change and with whom will you partner to do it?
    By all means, use whatever mechanism you require to move through the stages of grief
    as you bury your false idol of faux feminist solidarity."

    Sadly, Suzianne and Phranny seem to worship their 'false idol of faux feminist solidarity'.

    "In the meantime, please stop assuming, listen attentively, and look deeply within
    yourselves to purge racism and sexism (and a whole litany of other ‘isms."

    That's what I have been telling Suzianne and Phranny. I hope that they will listen.

    "Ashes to ashes, Dust to white liberal feminism."
    --Rhon Manigault-Bryant
  12. 25 Jan '17 23:18 / 1 edit
    I hope that these articles (by both white and non-white women) are enough to help explain
    (particularly to Suzianne and Phranny) why I oppose American 'White Feminism'.

    I note that extremely racist, sexist men such as Whodey and Quackquack seem eager
    to deny that racism could exist in mainstream white American feminism, and I suppose
    that Suzianne and Phranny would appreciate their support in denying reality.

    In reality, the United States is a deeply racist society. I have known few white Americans
    who were well-informed about racism and sincerely opposed racism on moral principle
    rather than merely claiming to oppose racism on account of political expediency.
  13. 26 Jan '17 03:35
    Suzianne and Phranny need to pay attention to all these points, but I have no reason to believe that they will.[/b]
    I don't necessarily agree with their ideas but let's make one thing clear: no one needs to pay attention to an idea because a hateful racist and sexist person like Dutchess says so. Everyone on a discussion forum should be free to express an opinion and others are free to address their ideas but not to demean them for expressing their views.
  14. 26 Jan '17 03:39
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I don't necessarily agree with their ideas but let's make one thing clear: no one needs to pay attention to an idea because a hateful racist and sexist person like Dutchess says so. Everyone on a discussion forum should be free to express an opinion and others are free to address their ideas but not to demean them for expressing their views.
    Suzianne and Phranny may be impressed when I quote the sexist troll Quackquack's rape apologist comments.
    Quackquack has a long record of lying about them.
  15. 26 Jan '17 03:44
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Suzianne and Phranny may be impressed when I quote the sexist troll Quackquack's rape apologist comments.
    Quackquack has a long record of lying about them.
    You are a nut job.