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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 11 Nov '16 19:27
    With complex topics there are always differences of opinion even among experts and frequently this is the case even when both sides are debating in good faith.

    One would expect politics to be no different. Of course no matter which side in US politics you're own, I'm sure you're all familiar with the accusations that those on the right are bigots, hate the poor, stupid, ignorant, dishonest, etc.

    My question for those on the left is, do you see ANY significant points of disagreement where those on the right hold their opinion in good faith and with a comparable degree of intellect as those on the left? If so, what is an example?
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    11 Nov '16 21:51 / 1 edit
    This question isn't as simple as you think. When a policy is put forth, the points of contention aren't with the policy or bill itself, it's the motivation behind the policy.

    For example, voters ID laws, in of themselves, aren't a bad idea. The problem is the motivation behind them, which is usually a thinly veiled attempt at reducing minority votes (they are more likely to lack them), thereby giving Republicans a voting advantage.

    With the above example, the real issues of debate often aren't surface-level; the real issues go deeper and come up after some examination. That's why simply asking whether one agrees with a stance or not, isn't as easy as you think.
  3. Standard member vivify
    rain
    11 Nov '16 22:03
    To further expound my point:

    Smaller Government: usually presented as the desire to limit how government interference or oppression in the lives of everyday people; the motivation is really less regulation of big business, resulting in businesses being able to have more and more power.

    Trickle-down economics: The idea that helping big business will be good for the economy by way of more job opportunites; the motivation often proves to be the same as above.

    I can go on, but you get the point.
  4. 11 Nov '16 22:12
    Originally posted by vivify
    To further expound my point:

    Smaller Government: usually presented as the desire to limit how government interference or oppression in the lives of everyday people; the motivation is really less regulation of big business, resulting in businesses being able to have more and more power.

    Trickle-down economics: The idea that helping big business will be g ...[text shortened]... s; the motivation often proves to be the same as above.

    I can go on, but you get the point.
    Let me take one example:

    Smaller Government: usually presented as the desire to limit how government interference or oppression in the lives of everyday people; the motivation is really less regulation of big business, resulting in businesses being able to have more and more power.

    Hidden in here is a chance to re-ask the question.

    There are perhaps 100 million people that would call themselves conservative. I know many of them, some owning small businesses, some working for large companies, some in other circumstances. Of those that would agree that there should be less government interference, there is not a single one I even suspect of being dishonest nor stupid. Of course none of us know the major politicians personally, so there is always a chance they're being dishonest.

    But how am I to take this? I know I've come to my assessment of my acquaintances in good faith. So what is your opinion. Are my friends lying to me? Even though they don't own big business, are they really hoping the strangers that do own them will get richer and are willing to lie to me to help the cause?

    Or am I to conclude you think my acquaintances are stupid?

    Or is there some third alternative I've missed?
  5. Standard member vivify
    rain
    11 Nov '16 23:43 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by techsouth
    Let me take one example:

    Smaller Government: usually presented as the desire to limit how government interference or oppression in the lives of everyday people; the motivation is really less regulation of big business, resulting in businesses being able to have more and more power.

    Hidden in here is a chance to re-ask the question.

    There ar ...[text shortened]... nclude you think my acquaintances are stupid?

    Or is there some third alternative I've missed?
    The biggest difference between the parties is that Democrats share general ideologies, while Republicans share a culture; which is why Republicans have come to be known as a party run by old white Christian males.

    This is why even poor Republicans would vote for someone with the aim of benefiting big business: that's part of the culture.
  6. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    12 Nov '16 00:16
    Originally posted by vivify
    This question isn't as simple as you think. When a policy is put forth, the points of contention aren't with the policy or bill itself, it's the motivation behind the policy.

    For example, voters ID laws, in of themselves, aren't a bad idea. The problem is the motivation behind them, which is usually a thinly veiled attempt at reducing minority votes (t ...[text shortened]... . That's why simply asking whether one agrees with a stance or not, isn't as easy as you think.
    Can you share how voter ID could and would reduce minority's votes?
  7. 12 Nov '16 00:17
    Are you trying to say that there are Social Liberals and Social Conservatives vs Economic Liberals and Economic Conservatives?

    Say it isn't so.
  8. Standard member vivify
    rain
    12 Nov '16 00:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you share how voter ID could and would reduce minority's votes?
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/why-voter-id-laws-arent-really-about-fraud/

    "African-Americans and Latinos are more likely to lack one of these qualifying IDs, according to several estimates. Even when the state offers a free photo ID, these voters, who are disproportionately low-income, may not be able to procure the underlying documents, such as a birth certificate, to obtain one.

    "In Texas, for example, challengers to the law cited an African-American grandmother who could not afford the $25 to purchase her birth certificate to get an ID, and an elderly African-American veteran and longtime voter who was turned away at the polls in 2013 despite having three types of ID, because none qualified under the new law."
  9. 12 Nov '16 00:21
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you share how voter ID could and would reduce minority's votes?
    By not allowing illegals to vote.
  10. 12 Nov '16 01:05
    Originally posted by vivify
    The biggest difference between the parties is that Democrats share general ideologies, while Republicans share a culture; which is why Republicans have come to be known as a party run by old white Christian males.

    This is why even poor Republicans would vote for someone with the aim of benefiting big business: that's part of the culture.
    You've tried to put this forth as if This question isn't as simple as you think..

    But from what you've written, the examples you gave are examples of cases where you've revealed that you believe that republicans are either stupid or dishonest. You just took a few more words to say it.

    I want to ask again, and perhaps someone else can chime in. Are there ANY cases of honest disagreements in between Democrats and Republicans to the extent that a republican's opinion merits some degree of respect and you could say that "honest men disagree"?

    If you can't think of any, then perhaps that is an opportunity for a little self reflection.

    I even brought up my own personal friends. I wish you could meet them. I don't suspect they're dishonest nor stupid, but nevertheless they hold opinions that differ from those of mainstream democrats on even the issues you brought up.
  11. Standard member vivify
    rain
    12 Nov '16 01:19 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by techsouth
    You've tried to put this forth as if [b]This question isn't as simple as you think..

    But from what you've written, the examples you gave are examples of cases where you've revealed that you believe that republicans are either stupid or dishonest. You just took a few more words to say it.[/b]
    Interesting how you didn't try to address what was posted. Everything I've said accurately describes why your OP isn't a simple matter of agreeing or disagreeing on a topic. Whether I think Republicans are angelic do-gooders or pimped by Satan doesn't change the truth of what I've said.

    If you see any flaw in my argument, be an adult and address it directly, rather than running away with vague indignation.
  12. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    12 Nov '16 02:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/why-voter-id-laws-arent-really-about-fraud/

    "African-Americans and Latinos are more likely to lack one of these qualifying IDs, according to several estimates. Even when the state offers a free photo ID, these voters, who are disproportionately low-income, may not be able to procure the underlying documents, such a ...[text shortened]... t the polls in 2013 despite having three types of ID, because none qualified under the new law."
    Why would one's color prohibite anyone from aquiring a birth certificate? There something special about not being a minority makes birth certificates easier to get?
  13. Standard member vivify
    rain
    12 Nov '16 02:05
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Why would one's color prohibite anyone from aquiring a birth certificate? There something special about not being a minority makes birth certificates easier to get?
    "these voters, who are disproportionately low-income, may not be able to procure the underlying documents, such as a birth certificate, to obtain one."
  14. Standard member KellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    12 Nov '16 02:39
    Originally posted by vivify
    "these voters, who are disproportionately low-income, may not be able to procure the underlying documents, such as a birth certificate, to obtain one."
    What again does one's color have to do with it? You can be poor and white so why would that mean they have an easier time of it? The charge being made it has to do with minority's status so again you can be white and poor, does being a poor white have something poor and a minority doesn't have? Please again what is it about being a minority differ from a white person who makes the same kind of money?
  15. 12 Nov '16 02:52
    I was not intending for the thread to debate the issues themselves.

    But for the Democrats...

    I want to ask again, and perhaps someone else can chime in. Are there ANY cases of honest disagreements in between Democrats and Republicans to the extent that a republican's opinion merits some degree of respect and you could say that "honest/reasonable men disagree"? In all other complex fields intelligent men have honest disagreements even when both parties come to the discussion in good faith.

    If you can't think of any such situations concerning your political rivals, then perhaps that is an opportunity for a little self reflection on whether or not you're beginning to approach the realm of bigotry of ideas.