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  1. Zugzwang
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    15 Jul '15 02:44
    http:/./en,chessbase.com/post/us-junior-championship-2015

    Out of the ten players at the 2015 US Junior Chess Championship,
    six players (Han, Li, Liang, Liou, Shen, Xiong) appear to be of Chinese
    heritage and one player (Chandra) appears to be of Indian heritage.
    The other three players appear to be white.

    This demographic seems comparable to that of recent US teams in the
    International Mathematical Olympiad, where typically four of the six members
    are Asians (mostly Chinese) and the other two are whites.

    Is chess (like solving challenging mathematical problems) becoming
    an American subculture in which there will be disproportionately many
    players of Asian heritage at the top? (Nakamura and So are already there.)
    And if so, then should anything be done to attempt to broaden its appeal?
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    15 Jul '15 03:00
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http:/./en,chessbase.com/post/us-junior-championship-2015

    Out of the ten players at the 2015 US Junior Chess Championship,
    six players (Han, Li, Liang, Liou, Shen, Xiong) appear to be of Chinese
    heritage and one player (Chandra) appears to be of Indian heritage.
    The other three players appear to be white.

    This demographic seems comparable to that ...[text shortened]... o are already there.)
    And if so, then should anything be done to attempt to broaden its appeal?
    Why do you want to concentrate on race where there in no controversy and they are all getting along just fine. I believe you are the most racist person in these forums.
  3. Standard memberbill718
    Enigma
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    15 Jul '15 09:241 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http:/./en,chessbase.com/post/us-junior-championship-2015

    Out of the ten players at the 2015 US Junior Chess Championship,
    six players (Han, Li, Liang, Liou, Shen, Xiong) appear to be of Chinese
    heritage and one player (Chandra) appears to be of Indian heritage.
    The other three players appear to be white.

    This demographic seems comparable to that ...[text shortened]... o are already there.)
    And if so, then should anything be done to attempt to broaden its appeal?
    The Unites States Chess Federation and most state chess organizations advertise and promote chess within the confines of their budgets. I would call that "an attempt to broaden it's appeal."
  4. Zugzwang
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    15 Jul '15 18:402 edits
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Why do you want to concentrate on race where there in no controversy and they are all getting along just fine.
    I believe you are the most racist person in these forums.
    RJHinds, a right-wing white American, has a long record of flagrant racism in various forums.

    Like some other white American racists, RJHinds prefers to deny that a history of racist
    stereotyping exists in American chess. Not long ago, many white American players liked
    to believe--or even say in public--that non-white American players were intrinsically inferior.
    The late Jerome Bibuld, a white American who was a FIDE international arbiter and an
    activist in promoting African-American chess, informed me of some racist incidents in chess.
    I myself heard (even in the early 21st century) some strong white players sneer at the
    notion that any non-white player--with Anand being written off as a fluke exception--could
    ever win the world championship or that any non-white country could ever win the Olympiad.
    (China has won the 2014 Olympiad and the 2015 world team championship.)
    I have no doubt that some older non-white players can recall being subjected to racial
    stereotyping or even explicit racist put-downs in American chess.

    In partial response to this kind of racism, some separate tournaments in the USA
    (Jerome Bibuld was a director) have been held only for players of black African heritage.
    Indeed, there's a current website, 'The Chess Drum', devoted to bringing attention only
    to players of black African heritage. (GM Maurice Ashley does have a high media profile.)
    I suspect that some right-wing white Americans here will like to condemn that as racist.

    http://www.thechessdrum.net

    I would note that when American chess evidently was dominated by players of Jewish heritage
    (counting Bobby Fischer, who refused to identify himself as Jewish), there was considerable
    discussion of 'Why are Jews superior at chess?', and white Americans did *not* regard
    that kind of discussion as racist. But when some non-white Americans begin to excel at
    something (chess) that white Americans traditionally expect to dominate, then some
    insecure white Americans become upset at being notified of that fact and like to denounce
    it as 'racist'. But that's just a part of common white American hypocrisy about racism.

    If I had taken an earlier US championship tournament and noted the disproportionately
    high number of players who evidently were of Jewish heritage, then I expect that none of
    the white Americans here would dare accuse me of 'racism'. But racist white Americans
    seem much more threatened by the achievements of non-whites (Asians) than Jews.

    I have no doubt that the projected future domination (apart from immigrants) of American
    chess by non-white players will make the white American racists here feel uncomfortable.
    That's exactly how they should feel, and the only mildly interesting question is how long
    they can keep denying reality amidst the collapse of their smug world of white supremacy.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    15 Jul '15 21:48
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    RJHinds, a right-wing white American, has a long record of flagrant racism in various forums.

    Like some other white American racists, RJHinds prefers to deny that a history of racist
    stereotyping exists in American chess. Not long ago, many white American players liked
    to believe--or even say in public--that non-white American players were intrinsica ...[text shortened]... long
    they can keep denying reality amidst the collapse of their smug world of white supremacy.
    You proved my point. And I don't have a long record of flagrant racism in various forums. I speak against evil acts and people, like Muslim terrorists. There should be no mention of race within American chess, because the USCF does not require anyone to state their race in order to join. My USCF member card has no mention of race, but it does mention that I am a senior and that is related to my age and not my race.

    So I hope you can swallow your pride and stop acting like a racist by mentioning peoples race all the time.
  6. Zugzwang
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    15 Jul '15 22:04
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    You proved my point. And I don't have a long record of flagrant racism in various forums. I speak against evil acts and people, like Muslim terrorists. There should be no mention of race within American chess, because the USCF does not require anyone to state their race in order to join. My USCF member card has no mention of race, but it does mention that ...[text shortened]... ou can swallow your pride and stop acting like a racist by mentioning peoples race all the time.
    RJHinds keeps lying about his racism as he has kept lying about many other things.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    15 Jul '15 22:211 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    RJHinds keeps lying about his racism as he has kept lying about many other things.
    You are just as much or more of a liar than I am, so what's new?
  8. Joined
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    15 Jul '15 23:441 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http:/./en,chessbase.com/post/us-junior-championship-2015

    Out of the ten players at the 2015 US Junior Chess Championship,
    six players (Han, Li, Liang, Liou, Shen, Xiong) appear to be of Chinese
    heritage and one player (Chandra) appears to be of Indian heritage.
    The other three players appear to be white.

    This demographic seems comparable to that ...[text shortened]... o are already there.)
    And if so, then should anything be done to attempt to broaden its appeal?
    I believe a sociology-oriented historian would point out that until recently, great American chess players are/were almost exclusively of European descent (broadly defined), and I speculate that most if not all of them were/are one or two or perhaps three generations away from European immigrant ancestors. I have no data on the recency of arrival of these Asian families, but it is well known that the Asian family ethic (especially American Asian families) is similar to that of high achieving European immigrants. The US has always benefited, on net, from being a place people who have the ability to prosper, want to live in.

    Bobby Fischer is one example. While his paternal genealogy is questioned, he is undoubtedly of European (broadly defined) lineage.
  9. Zugzwang
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    16 Jul '15 00:428 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    I believe a sociology-oriented historian would point out that until recently, great American chess players are/were almost exclusively of European descent (broadly defined), and I speculate that most if not all of them were/are one or two or perhaps three generations away from European immigrant ancestors. I have no data on the recency of arrival of these Asia ...[text shortened]... e his paternal genealogy is questioned, he is undoubtedly of European (broadly defined) lineage.
    Given that most Americans insist on framing all discussions of 'racism' in terms of a narrow
    white/black binary, I expect them to have no comprehension of most of what I write.

    First of all, most Americans are of European ancestry, so it seems natural that most
    American chess players and most of the top American chess players should be of
    European ancestry. Indeed, until recently about all of the top American chess players
    were of European ancestry. Gata Kamsky, a Soviet immigrant, was born in Asia and is
    of Tatar heritage, but most Americans seem to perceive him as white rather than Asian.
    There would be no news story if most of the top American junior players were white.
    That's expected. There's a news story here only because of what's *unexpected*.

    For a long time, a disproportionately high number of the top American players were of
    Jewish heritage. And I can recall many discussions (one can find some on the internet
    even today) of 'Why are Jews superior at chess". There was an old saying that the
    best players were Russian Jews, followed by non-Jewish Russians or non-Russian Jews.
    If I had pointed to the disproportionately high number of Jewish players in an earlier
    US championship tournament, no white American here would dare accuse me of 'racism'.

    And there was a strong subculture of racist stereotypes against non-white players in chess.
    I can recall someone telling me that, while China and India have large populations, he
    was certain that China and India never--not in a thousand years--could come close to
    contending for medals in the Olympiads. (This kind of racism seemed directed more at
    the Chinese--the 'Yellow Peril'--than the Indians.) At the 2014 Olympiad China won the
    gold medal and India won the bronze medal. Even today I hear some people saying
    things to the effect that while Wei Yi (age 16, rated FIDE 2700+) may be 'good for a
    Chinese', he never will be able to come close to being world champion because, after
    all, he's Chinese and inevitably inferior in important ways to the best Western players.
    I know that's what many racists desperately want to believe.

    I am making a comparison between the recent success of players of Asian heritage in
    American chess and the continuing success of students of Asian heritage in American
    academics, particularly in mathematics, science, engineering, and technology.
    I know that these facts seem extremely politically embarrassing to most Americans, who
    seem to prefer to ignore or deny them, while holding other narrow stereotypes about Asians.

    *If* it were true that six of the ten players at the 2015 US junior championship were black
    Americans rather than ethnic Chinese, then I expect this would be a national news story,
    with American journalists competing with one another to praise the black players as
    highly as possible. Some politicians, both white and black, would be expected to cite
    American junior chess as a wonderful example of 'racial progress' in the United States.
    Whether or not these black players had encountered any racism individually, the dominant
    media narrative would be of 'brilliant black people bravely overcoming a history of racism
    to excel in something traditionally dominated by white people.' President Obama might
    invite these (hypothetical) acclaimed young black chess champions to the White House.

    But, in fact, the *wrong* (politically speaking) demographic group seems to be excelling
    in this event. And therefore the dominant media narrative is completely different.
    Americans usually *pretend not* to notice race/ethnicity (let's just act like all the
    exceptional Asians are whites!) *only when* it's politically embarrassing for them to notice
    race/ethnicity. Ideally in terms of American racial politics, the successes of Americans
    of Asian heritage should be practically *invisible*. Most Americans of Asian heritage who
    have exceptional achievements already seem to know that their achievements will receive
    minimal attention in the mainstream media unless it's politically expedient for other reasons.

    In fact, 60% of the players in the 2015 US junior chess championship apparently come
    from the tiny Chinese minority (less than 1% of the US population). I would regard that
    as something unexpected, which could provoke examination and call for an explanation.
    (The Chinese minority has been afflicted by brutal racism, of which few Americans seem aware.)
    But, oh no, there's no curiosity whatsoever from the mainstream US media, which presumably
    would like to bury the story. If 60% of the players were Jewish, the US media would exclaim,
    'This just shows again how brilliant the Jews are!' If 60% of the players were black, the
    US media would exclaim, 'This just shows how gifted black people can bravely overcome racism!'
    But in this case I doubt there will be any mainstream US media recognition of these players'
    achievements. And excelling in chess is far from being a Chinese cultural tradition.
  10. Joined
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    16 Jul '15 00:57
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    First of all, most Americans are of European ancestry, so it seems natural that most
    American chess players and most of the top American chess players should be of
    European ancestry. Indeed, until recently about all of the top American chess players
    were of European ancestry. Gata Kamsky, a Soviet immigrant, was born in Asia and is
    of Tatar heritage, ...[text shortened]... ce
    race/ethnicity. But most exceptional Asians already know to expect this 'double standard'.
    "I know that these facts seem extremely politically embarrassing to most Americans, who
    seem to prefer to ignore or deny them, while holding other narrow stereotypes about Asians."

    Narrow stereotypes. Hmmm.
  11. Zugzwang
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    16 Jul '15 01:521 edit
    Originally posted by JS357
    "I know that these facts seem extremely politically embarrassing to most Americans, who
    seem to prefer to ignore or deny them, while holding other narrow stereotypes about Asians."

    Narrow stereotypes. Hmmm.
    (I encountered technical difficulties in editing my earlier post, which I now have revised.)
    I hope that you (JS357) are *not* going to deny there's much anti-Asian racism in the USA.
    Indeed, nearly all of the American writers here seem to take for granted that much casual
    racism about Asians must be true. There are far fewer people (I seem to be the only one)
    who are ready to challenge inaccurate stereotypes about Asians than there are who
    challenge inaccurate stereotypes about blacks.

    Now the United States is diverse, and you (JS357) may live in an area with substantial
    Asian communities and, at least on the surface, general tolerance of people of Asian heritage.
    But much of the United States is different. And even in suburban northern California,
    there's much adverse narrow stereotyping of Asians.

    One common narrow stereotype is that people of Asian heritage are incapable of communicating
    well in English. Indeed, some US citizens of Asian heritage have reported being turned
    down for jobs on that basis even though they were native speakers of English and had
    university degrees in English when the competing white applicants had no such degrees.

    Another narrow stereotype is that people of Asian heritage are incapable of being good leaders.
    A white American friend of mine (Ph.D. from Stanford University) worked at a high tech firm
    in Silicon Valley. He said that nearly half of the engineers were of Asian heritage but
    almost none of the managers were Asians, and none of the senior executives were Asians.
    He believed that one of his friends (born in the USA of Chinese parents), who was fluent
    in English and unusually assertive, could have become an excellent manager at this firm.
    But he also believed that his friend never would get the opportunity on account of the
    dominant adverse racial stereotyping.
  12. Joined
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    16 Jul '15 05:10
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    (I encountered technical difficulties in editing my earlier post, which I now have revised.)
    I hope that you (JS357) are *not* going to deny there's much anti-Asian racism in the USA.
    Indeed, nearly all of the American writers here seem to take for granted that much casual
    racism about Asians must be true. There are far fewer people (I seem to be the o ...[text shortened]... friend never would get the opportunity on account of the
    dominant adverse racial stereotyping.
    You may be right, I live in "silicon valley" my wife's company (she owns) has a Chinese American as CFO, etc. and we have Asian supermarkets, varieties of Asian restaurants, life in general, all around us and we, my wife and I, good German stock, are quite happy here. And the other major ethnic groups, varieties of Hispanic, seem to have worked out an arrangement. Although I must say there are subdivisions of the economics. Example: nail salons -- Vietnamese. So I simply am not exposed to much racism. I won't say more, because... but you would understand more if I did.



    There are parts of the US that are diverse and getting along.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    16 Jul '15 06:11
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    (I encountered technical difficulties in editing my earlier post, which I now have revised.)
    I hope that you (JS357) are *not* going to deny there's much anti-Asian racism in the USA.
    Indeed, nearly all of the American writers here seem to take for granted that much casual
    racism about Asians must be true. There are far fewer people (I seem to be the o ...[text shortened]... friend never would get the opportunity on account of the
    dominant adverse racial stereotyping.
    We in the American Chess culture look as all citizens of the USA as Americans. I have noticed no indication of racist attitudes in chess here. The chess clubs welcome white, black, red, yellow, and brown people alike. They act as if they are color blind from what I have seen.
  14. Zugzwang
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    16 Jul '15 18:501 edit
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    We in the American Chess culture look as all citizens of the USA as Americans. I have noticed no indication of racist attitudes in chess here.
    The chess clubs welcome white, black, red, yellow, and brown people alike. They act as if they are color blind from what I have seen.
    Many people, including some Americans have noticed many racist comments and attitudes
    from some American writers (including RJHinds) in this chess website's forums.
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    16 Jul '15 19:39
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Many people, including some Americans have noticed many racist comments and attitudes
    from some American writers (including RJHinds) in this chess website's forums.
    Why don't you give evidence of these many racist comments by RJHinds so he has a chance to comment about them.
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