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  1. Zugzwang
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    06 Mar '19 20:321 edit
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/mar/05/thousands-young-girls-denied-abortion-argentina

    "'Thousands' of young girls denied abortion after rape in Argentina
    Anti-choice doctors and health officials accused of obstructing
    *legal terminations* after 11-year-old girl gave birth to rapist’s child."

    "The lives of thousands of girls in Argentina are being put at risk as *legal abortions*
    are delayed and obstructed by doctors trying to force pregnancies to full term.

    The issue of anti-choice doctors, medical institutions and government officials
    deliberately trying to hold up *legally sanctioned terminations* was brought
    into sharp focus last week when it emerged that an 11-year-old girl’s baby
    was born alive because health officials delayed her request for an abortion."

    "According to the latest government figures, 2,493 live births in 2017 were
    to girls under 15. Many such pregnancies are the result of rape by family members.
    More than 91,500 births were to girls aged 15 to 19.

    The World Health Organization has found that complications in pregnancy
    and childbirth are the biggest killers of 15- to 19-year-old girls.
    While no official figures are collected for girls aged under 15, the WHO
    said mothers aged 10 to 19 face higher risks of eclampsia, puerperal
    endometritis and systemic infections than women aged 20 to 24."

    'Pro-life' activists like to assume that pregnancies carry no serious risks to health.

    "The problem is compounded by the hold of the Catholic church
    and conservatives who advocate a policy of “save both lives”.
    The motto serves as a rallying cry for a growing number of anti-abortion
    campaigners since Argentina’s congress rejected a bill to legalise abortion last year."

    "Abortion remains illegal throughout most of Latin America and the Caribbean.
    Only Cuba, Uruguay, Guyana and México City permit elective abortions.
    Chile overturned its total ban in 2017."

    "Official statistics estimate the number of clandestine abortions at
    345,000 every year, despite the threat of a four-year jail term.
    Women who suffer from complications after clandestine abortions
    are often too scared to seek medical help."

    Given that many 'pro-life' writers here apparently believe that a fertilized egg's
    the same as a human being and that abortion is murder, how many
    of them would like to step forward and declare (to be consistent)
    that every impregnated rape victim, however young, should be
    compelled to give birth against her will?
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    06 Mar '19 23:251 edit
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/mar/05/thousands-young-girls-denied-abortion-argentina

    "'Thousands' of young girls denied abortion after rape in Argentina
    Anti-choice doctors and health officials accused of obstructing
    *legal terminations* after 11-year-old girl gave birth to rapist’s child."

    "The lives of thousands of girls in Argentina are be ...[text shortened]... t every impregnated rape victim, however young, should be
    compelled to give birth against her will?
    This is even more disgusting when one realizes that these same supposed 'pro-life' people would also deny all women of childbearing age adequate contraception. Women are no more than 'baby farms' to these people.
  3. Zugzwang
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    06 Mar '19 23:43
    @suzianne said
    This is even more disgusting when one realizes that these same supposed 'pro-life' people would also deny all women of childbearing age adequate contraception. Women are no more than 'baby farms' to these people.
    "Official statistics estimate the number of clandestine abortions at
    345,000 every year, despite the threat of a four-year jail term.
    Women who suffer from complications after clandestine abortions
    are often too scared to seek medical help."
    --quoted in my original post

    Argentina's government has not eliminated abortions.
    It has just driven it underground and made it much less safe for women and girls.
  4. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    07 Mar '19 00:43
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/mar/05/thousands-young-girls-denied-abortion-argentina

    "'Thousands' of young girls denied abortion after rape in Argentina
    Anti-choice doctors and health officials accused of obstructing
    *legal terminations* after 11-year-old girl gave birth to rapist’s child."

    "The lives of thousands of girls in Argentina are be ...[text shortened]... t every impregnated rape victim, however young, should be
    compelled to give birth against her will?
    Given that many 'pro-life' writers here apparently believe that a fertilized egg's
    the same as a human being and that abortion is murder, how many
    of them would like to step forward and declare (to be consistent)
    that every impregnated rape victim, however young, should be
    compelled to give birth against her will?


    But not all would be giving birth against their will, so your statement is sloppy.

    But, yes.

    If you believe it is murder, it is murder regardless of the circumstances.

    Which is why if you're an anti death penalty person you have to be against the death penalty even if there's undeniable evidence and a confession that a man raped and butchered half a dozen children.

    So yes, I mean, of course we're against it then...

    So set up the most atrocious and terrible situations that you can....

    And we will say "we still don't believe in it because committing murder doesn't make the situation better for everyone."
  5. Zugzwang
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    07 Mar '19 01:01
    @philokalia said
    Given that many 'pro-life' writers here apparently believe that a fertilized egg's
    the same as a human being and that abortion is murder, how many
    of them would like to step forward and declare (to be consistent)
    that every impregnated rape victim, however young, should be
    compelled to give birth against her will?


    But not all would be giving birt ...[text shortened]... still don't believe in it because committing murder doesn't make the situation better for everyone."
    Philokalia has misunderstood or distorted my context.

    Clearly, I was referred to 'every impregnated rape victim' WHO WANTS ABORTION
    to be 'compelled to give birth against her will'. I know that some impregnated
    rape victims would believe that abortion is always wrong.
  6. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    07 Mar '19 01:34
    @duchess64 said
    Philokalia has misunderstood or distorted my context.

    Clearly, I was referred to 'every impregnated rape victim' WHO WANTS ABORTION
    to be 'compelled to give birth against her will'. I know that some impregnated
    rape victims would believe that abortion is always wrong.
    Oh, OK.

    So you will agree that you will not be ruthless in your readings of my posts either, then?

    You will be far more charitable to me when my wording is not exhaustively specific..?

    I can go for that.
  7. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    08 Mar '19 00:15
    @philokalia said
    Given that many 'pro-life' writers here apparently believe that a fertilized egg's
    the same as a human being and that abortion is murder, how many
    of them would like to step forward and declare (to be consistent)
    that every impregnated rape victim, however young, should be
    compelled to give birth against her will?


    But not all would be giving birt ...[text shortened]... still don't believe in it because committing murder doesn't make the situation better for everyone."
    Removing an egg with a sperm-cell in it is not murder; liars.
  8. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    08 Mar '19 00:37
    @kingdavid403 said
    Removing an egg with a sperm-cell in it is not murder; liars.
    Without getting into all the normal emotion and rhetoric that accompanies every abortion screaming match... I just want to point out that calling us liars is pretty ridiculous.

    Sure, we might be wrong, but it seems incredibly doubtful that we are lying about this.

    If a man says that the earth is flat, he isn't a liar. He's just wrong. Unless, of course, he knows that the earth is not flat... but is choosing to try to deceive someone by saying that it is.
  9. SubscriberKingDavid403
    King David
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    08 Mar '19 02:093 edits
    @philokalia said
    Without getting into all the normal emotion and rhetoric that accompanies every abortion screaming match... I just want to point out that calling us liars is pretty ridiculous.

    Sure, we might be wrong, but it seems incredibly doubtful that we are lying about this.

    If a man says that the earth is flat, he isn't a liar. He's just wrong. Unless, of course, ...[text shortened]... ws that the earth is not flat... but is choosing to try to deceive someone by saying that it is.[/i]
    You are liars; period! And, you all run around falsely accusing women and doctors of being baby killers and murderers whom choose to remove an egg with a sperm-cell in it; and who perfectly follow the law to do so. You and your ilk are liars and false witness bearers. Simple as that; not to mention the hypocrisy. Anytime someone falsely accuses someone of murder, that is lying. Hellooooo..... lol
  10. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    08 Mar '19 02:34
    @kingdavid403 said
    You are liars; period! And, you all run around falsely accusing women and doctors of being baby killers and murderers whom choose to remove an egg with a sperm-cell in it; and who perfectly follow the law to do so. You and your ilk are liars and false witness bearers. Simple as that; not to mention the hypocrisy. Anytime someone falsely accuses someone of murder, that is lying. Hellooooo..... lol
    So, if a vegan strongly believes that meat is murder and refers to a butcher as a murderer, is he also a "liar?"

    I see it as someone who is wrong, but they are clearly not lying or "bearing false witness."

    They merely have a different perspective than me.

    Words have meaning, David.
  11. SubscriberKingDavid403
    King David
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    08 Mar '19 02:451 edit
    @philokalia said
    So, if a vegan strongly believes that meat is murder and refers to a butcher as a murderer, is he also a "liar?"

    I see it as someone who is wrong, but they are clearly not lying or "bearing false witness."

    They merely have a different perspective than me.

    Words have meaning, David.
    Words have meaning, David.
    Yes, they do; and since you are using the word "murderer" and "baby killer" to falsely accuse someone of murder, that makes you a liar AND FALSE WITNESS BEARER. Your vegan above has more of a case of murder than you by far. However, he would be wrong also.
  12. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    08 Mar '19 02:54
    @kingdavid403 said
    Words have meaning, David.
    Yes, they do; and since you are using the word "murderer" and "baby killer" to falsely accuse someone of murder, that makes you a liar AND FALSE WITNESS BEARER. Your vegan above has more of a case of murder than you by far. However, he would be wrong also.
    Sure, he can be wrong...

    But is the vegan a liar?
  13. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    08 Mar '19 02:591 edit
    @philokalia said
    Sure, he can be wrong...

    But is the vegan a liar?
    But is the vegan a liar?
    Yep; however, the Vegan is not falsely accusing a human being of murdering another human being. lol
  14. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    08 Mar '19 04:06
    @kingdavid403 said
    But is the vegan a liar?
    Yep; however, the Vegan is not falsely accusing a human being of murdering another human being. lol
    If I believe that I lost my ring at the restaurant...

    And I say "I lost my ring at the restaurant," as that was a likely scenario, but I find it a week later in my suit jacket (which wasn't even the suit jacket that I wore that night), a much less likely scenario...

    Is it appropriate to say that I was a liar when I told people that I lost my ring at the restaurant..?

    Or was I just wrong about it?
  15. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    08 Mar '19 04:07
    Also, David...

    If I call you a liar because you don't think that abortion performing doctors are murderers...

    And I am right that abortion is murder...

    Am I right to be calling you a liar?

    ... So, should I actually be calling you a liar right now, because I think you are wrong..?
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