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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jul '13 16:51
    Detroit seems to be considering filing for bankruptcy protection under Chapter 9.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130716/BIZ/307160025

    This is more of a legal question than a debating point, but as an arm of the state of Michigan, can they be subjected to federal bankruptcy procedural rules? What if they decide to ignore federal protocol? What in the Constitution allows the federal government to enforce its federal rules against an agency of the state of Michigan? I know that the federal government has the authority to abrogate the immunity of the state in some cases, but is a bankruptcy proceeding one of them?

    Sorry for the obscure question, but I haven't seen much play from this angle and was wondering if anyone with some experience in this area had any ideas.
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    16 Jul '13 17:12
    Originally posted by sh76
    Detroit seems to be considering filing for bankruptcy protection under Chapter 9.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130716/BIZ/307160025

    This is more of a legal question than a debating point, but as an arm of the state of Michigan, can they be subjected to federal bankruptcy procedural rules? What if they decide to ignore federal protocol? What in the ...[text shortened]... ay from this angle and was wondering if anyone with some experience in this area had any ideas.
    The Constitution gives the Congress plenary power over bankruptcy:

    Article I, Section 8:

    To establish .......................... uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    IF a State organ like a city seeks protection under such laws they are subject to whatever rules Congress in their sole power decides are appropriate.
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    16 Jul '13 17:17 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The Constitution gives the Congress plenary power over bankruptcy:

    Article I, Section 8:

    To establish .......................... uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    IF a State organ like a city seeks protection under such laws they are subject to whatever rules Congress in their sole power decides are appropriate.
    Can Detroit instead simply decide to repudiate its debts and bypass the federal system? Would they be subject to federal jurisdiction if sued based on their debts?
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    16 Jul '13 17:24
    Originally posted by sh76
    Can Detroit instead simply decide to repudiate its debts and bypass the federal system? Would they be subject to federal jurisdiction if sued based on their debts?
    Off hand, I have no idea. I find it hard to believe that anyone would let them borrow money or provide services to the city if they could simply unilaterally cancel their debts.
  5. 17 Jul '13 01:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Can Detroit instead simply decide to repudiate its debts and bypass the federal system? Would they be subject to federal jurisdiction if sued based on their debts?
    Apparently they can under the newly redrafted Emergency Financial Manager Act.

    So much for the reputed safety of municipal bonds.

    This is largely newly trodden territory, as the first EFM law was struck down, and the new one may face legal challenges, while in the meantime Detroit sinks deeper in debt.
  6. 19 Jul '13 00:26
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Apparently they can under the newly redrafted Emergency Financial Manager Act.

    So much for the reputed safety of municipal bonds.

    This is largely newly trodden territory, as the first EFM law was struck down, and the new one may face legal challenges, while in the meantime Detroit sinks deeper in debt.
    I heard on the morning news that EFM Kevin Orr has applied for chapter 9 for the city of Detroit.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    19 Jul '13 00:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I heard on the morning news that EFM Kevin Orr has applied for chapter 9 for the city of Detroit.
    Yup. A sad day in the annals of government irresponsibility. The party is over for the government and government employees in that town.
  8. 19 Jul '13 02:11
    City, state, country.

    I love a good game of dominos.
  9. 19 Jul '13 14:59
    As far as I know if I knowingly run up credit debt I know I cannot repay it is considered fraud. At what point can a municipality or government agency be charged likewise?
  10. 19 Jul '13 15:45
    Originally posted by whodey
    City, state, country.

    I love a good game of dominos.
    The country is a bit different, the Federal government can just print more money if need be.

    But yeah, no different than the private world, eventually the workers do not receive what they were promised. But if they already did the work, why should their employer care?
  11. 19 Jul '13 16:48
    Originally posted by Eladar
    The country is a bit different, the Federal government can just print more money if need be.

    But yeah, no different than the private world, eventually the workers do not receive what they were promised. But if they already did the work, why should their employer care?
    Well then Detroit should just print its own money.
  12. 19 Jul '13 18:40
    Originally posted by whodey
    Well then Detroit should just print its own money.
    They just need the Federal government to do it for them.
  13. 19 Jul '13 19:20
    Originally posted by sh76
    Yup. A sad day in the annals of government irresponsibility. The party is over for the government and government employees in that town.
    This is a long time coming. One party government since the depression. Featherbedding, and stuff went along pretty well, until auto industry slow downs, really corrupt mayors, labor demanding more and more without regard for ability to pay. And the biggest blow, the 1967 and 1972 race riots.

    These events drove not only most of the white people fleeing, but most of the substantial black folks as well.

    Would you believe that a city council candidate in Hamtramk, a surrounded suburb wants to deny entry into his city by Detroit residents. A boreder fence is proposed to accomplish the task. Hamtramk used to be a Polish enclave, but it has turned into a mostly Middle Eastern community, both Islamic and Chaldean.

    Hamtramk, by the way, has already gone through the EFM process.
  14. 21 Jul '13 22:44
    I say bull doze Detroit and plant trees. That way we can help save the planet from the evil pollutant known as carbon dioxide. Then the same politicians can move to other cities around the US to start the same process there as well. Soon with their help we might have a chance to save mother earth no matter how slim that may be. :'(
  15. 21 Jul '13 22:47
    Originally posted by Eladar
    They just need the Federal government to do it for them.
    Part of the problem with the progressive agenda is that it is not feasible. Simply put, it is living beyond our means. That is why shifting everything to the federal government is so vital so that they can then just print money out their arse.

    The Federal government will come to the rescue, there is no question about it, just like there is no question they will come to the rescue of any state or corporation that is going under financially. Failure is not an option in the progressive philosophy, it is a requirement.