Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    26 Feb '19 22:46
    It's obvious that Americans are deeply divided in many ways.
    Even Americans themselves speak of 'blue states' and 'red states'.

    In 284, the Roman Empire was divided into two parts, based upon
    the belief that it would be better off governed as smaller entities.

    Likewise, I suggest that United States should be divided (though
    this may require a constitutional amendment first) into several nations.

    Hawaii was an independent kingdom before being annexed by the USA.
    Hawaii is located far from the mainland USA. With a non-white majority,
    Hawaii has significant cultural differences from the mainland USA.
    So Hawaii is one candidate for nationhood. Hawaii's economy could
    thrive on tourism and perhaps by leasing a naval base to the USA.
    I would suggest that Hawaii become a 'Switzerland of the Pacific'
    and promote its banking industry.

    California (liberal) and Texas (conservative) are both big enough in
    terms of population, land area, and GDP to become independent nations.
    In nominal GDP, California exceeds the UK and Texas exceeds Canada.
    Both California and Texas might have been briefly independent republics in the 19th century.
    So California and Texas are other candidates for nationhood.

    Regarding the other 47 states, some other divisions come to mind.
    Independence would be a harder proposition for landlocked states.
    Florida could become an independent nation or join with other southern states.
    Oregon and Washington could consider joining California (to dominate
    the Pacific coast) or with other states in the northwestern USA.

    For the rest of the world, one benefit would be that, once divided,
    the USA should become less dangerous as an imperialist power.

    So should modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?
  2. Behind the scenes
    Joined
    27 Jun '16
    Moves
    1406
    27 Feb '19 00:27
    @duchess64 said
    It's obvious that Americans are deeply divided in many ways.
    Even Americans themselves speak of 'blue states' and 'red states'.

    In 284, the Roman Empire was divided into two parts, based upon
    the belief that it would be better off governed as smaller entities.

    Likewise, I suggest that United States should be divided (though
    this may require a constitutional amendme ...[text shortened]... ould modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?
    So should modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent and consider dividing the United States?


    No. Americans may be divided on political issues, but use the same justice system and most are comfortable operating under the same Constitution, and principles of Democracy. You might think this is a good idea Duchess, but most Americans would not agree to dividing this country.
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    27 Feb '19 00:332 edits
    @mchill said
    So should modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent and consider dividing the United States?

    No. Americans may be divided on political issues, but use the same justice system and most are comfortable operating under the same Constitution, and principles of Democracy. You might think this is a good idea Duchess, but most Americans would not agree to dividing this country.
    I did NOT ask a question about whether this 'modest proposal' would be popular now.
    I doubt that most Americans are yet ready to consider such a radical suggestion.
    But not many political movements ever START AS ALREADY POPULAR.

    I simply observe that Americans themselves routinely talk of the deep division
    between 'blue states' and 'red states'. When will that division be ratified formally?
    (There's already an independence movement for Hawaii.)

    If California becomes an independent nation, then it could progress more rapidly
    toward a west European-style social democracy. Why should California (with the
    world's fifth largest GDP) be happy to have the same representation as Wyoming
    in the US Senate?

    I realize that admirers of US imperialism and militarism will oppose any division.
  4. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 Feb '19 00:512 edits
    @duchess64 said
    It's obvious that Americans are deeply divided in many ways.
    Even Americans themselves speak of 'blue states' and 'red states'.

    In 284, the Roman Empire was divided into two parts, based upon
    the belief that it would be better off governed as smaller entities.

    Likewise, I suggest that United States should be divided (though
    this may require a constitutional amendme ...[text shortened]... ould modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?
    LOL.

    When socialists divide, they conquer.

    If socialists really wanted conservatives to govern themselves, they would honor state rights regarding such things as abortion and health care, but they don't.

    No, socialism is like a cancer that spreads and destroys.

    To turn red states blue, they will continue to indoctrinate the populace through the media and education because they have full control over them

    Of course, a steady flow of illegal aliens who can only identify with hard core socialism that they are fleeing only helps their cause.

    Yep, all we get are threads like from marauder gloating how superior the liberal master race is compared to the red states.

    The Left knows they are superior in all things so only for the good of those that disagree with them must they subdue and conquer them.
  5. Behind the scenes
    Joined
    27 Jun '16
    Moves
    1406
    27 Feb '19 00:59
    @duchess64 said
    I did NOT ask a question about whether this 'modest proposal' would be popular now.
    I doubt that most Americans are yet ready to consider such a radical suggestion.
    But not many political movements ever START AS ALREADY POPULAR.

    I simply observe that Americans themselves routinely talk of the deep division
    between 'blue states' and 'red states'. When will that divisi ...[text shortened]... the US Senate?

    I realize that admirers of US imperialism and militarism will oppose any division.
    I did NOT ask a question about whether this 'modest proposal' would be popular now.


    I don't care what you asked. It's not going to happen, so why bring it up?? Maybe you should go back to bad mouthing the white man, you're pretty good at it.
  6. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 Feb '19 01:151 edit
    @mchill said
    I did NOT ask a question about whether this 'modest proposal' would be popular now.


    I don't care what you asked. It's not going to happen, so why bring it up?? Maybe you should go back to bad mouthing the white man, you're pretty good at it.
    I'm sure that Duchy would love to see America divide in the hopes that the Constitution and all it represents will be destroyed.

    After all, giving people freedom is dangerous. They pollute too much, have too many kids, and use too many natural resources.

    And who can stand to hear people speak if the disagree with you? Why give them such freedom? Naturally, college campuses and Twitter and Facebook know how to shut down this sort of right wing thought but they still insist on speaking in other places.
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35841
    27 Feb '19 01:26
    The last time certain factions in the US thought they had a legitimate reason for seceding, we fought a brutal war over it. Does the original poster of this thread hate the US so much that she dreams of a day it might happen again?

    "A nation divided against itself cannot stand." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1858
  8. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    27 Feb '19 01:34
    @suzianne said
    The last time certain factions in the US thought they had a legitimate reason for seceding, we fought a brutal war over it. Does the original poster of this thread hate the US so much that she dreams of a day it might happen again?

    "A nation divided against itself cannot stand." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1858
    This 'modest proposal' has nothing to do about seceding to protect slavery.
    As I wrote, an independent California likely would become 'progressive' faster,
    in contrast to Suzianne's state of Arizona.

    Suzianne may be unaware of or unconcerned about the reality that many native
    Hawaiians believe that Hawaii was an independent kingdom wrongly seized by the USA.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_sovereignty_movement

    "The Hawaiian sovereignty movement (Hawaiian: ke ea Hawai╩╗i) is a grassroots
    political and cultural campaign to gain sovereignty, self-determination and self-governance
    for Hawaiians of whole or part Native Hawaiian ancestry with an autonomous or
    independent nation or kingdom.[1][2] Some groups also advocate some form of
    redress from the United States for the 1893 overthrow of Queen Lili╩╗uokalani, and
    for what is described as a prolonged military occupation beginning with the 1898 annexation.
    The movement generally views both the overthrow and annexation as illegal. ...
    The Apology Resolution passed by the United States Congress in 1993 acknowledged
    that the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii in 1893 was an illegal act.[7]"

    If the USA became divided into more than one country, then it would in a weaker
    position to use its military to attack and dominate much of the rest of the world.
    Most Americans presumably would believe that would be a great loss.
  9. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    27 Feb '19 01:511 edit
    @duchess64 said
    It's obvious that Americans are deeply divided in many ways.
    Even Americans themselves speak of 'blue states' and 'red states'.

    In 284, the Roman Empire was divided into two parts, based upon
    the belief that it would be better off governed as smaller entities.

    Likewise, I suggest that United States should be divided (though
    this may require a constitutional amendme ...[text shortened]... ould modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?
    “So should modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?”

    Sure. Why not. It would at least be enlightening and instructive. May I suggest that we on this forum consider doing a “pilot study.” Define issues: flesh out recommendations on what the determinants of national boundaries will be, would be a start. Presumably there will be differences of opinion, horse trading, etc. Disposition of national parks, military bases and other assets, space programs, etc., transitioning away from current federal systems like social security, etc. it might also result in lots of migration.
  10. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 Feb '19 01:53
    @js357 said
    “So should modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?”

    Sure. Why not. It would at least be enlightening and instructive. May I suggest that we on this forum consider doing a “pilot study.” Define issues: flesh out recommendations on what the determinants of national boundaries will be, would be a start. Presumably there w ...[text shortened]... y from current federal systems like social security, etc. it might also result in lots of migration.
    Yes, divide the US as the US becomes Mexico.

    Sounds great.
  11. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    27 Feb '19 02:361 edit
    @js357 said
    “So should modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?”

    Sure. Why not. It would at least be enlightening and instructive. May I suggest that we on this forum consider doing a “pilot study.” Define issues: flesh out recommendations on what the determinants of national boundaries will be, would be a start. Presumably there w ...[text shortened]... y from current federal systems like social security, etc. it might also result in lots of migration.
    Thanks for understanding rather than responding with knee-jerk rejection or hated.
    My 'modest proposal' is aspirational, a 'thought experiment', an intellectual exercise.
    It's no more of a concrete plan the the 'Green New Deal', which several writers here
    already seem to have embraced.
  12. Joined
    18 Jan '07
    Moves
    7291
    27 Feb '19 09:16
    @duchess64 said
    So should modern Americans follow the ancient Romans' precedent
    and consider dividing the United States?
    The conditions are wildly different, so no.

    Comparing the USA (internally - its imperialist behaviour in foreign countries is a different matter) to the IR is a red herring. The IR split, not because of cultural or political differences, but because of logistics. First, the entire IR proved too difficult for one emperor to rule from one city. In those days, the distances and delays proved just too large. Therefore, it was divided into two courts. Again, this was entirely for practical, not political reasons; the Romans did not considet there to be two Empires, just teo courts to rule it, one in Rome and one in Constantinople.
    Then, the Goths invaded and conquered Rome and so made the Western Empire fall, and because of the split, the Eastern Empire survived. But note that they still didn!t think of themselves as the Eastern or Byzantine Empire; they considered themselved the remaining part of the Roman Empire. It still wasn't a political or cultural split, but a practical one, forced by physical, not societal, contingencies.

    And honestly, the differences between different parts of the USA are not as large as they're made out to be by libertarians, radio pundits, and Xi-bots. The differences within the states are much larger than the ones between them; you just don't see it because the two-party system blots each state with one caricature.
    No, if you want to split a modern day Empire into regions where, nowadays, indigenous minorities are repressed and truly different cultures exist but aren't allowed to flourish, I would start with Continental China, where the Han violently repress many other peoples, not least the Tibetans and the Uyghurs. Until the Tibetans are free and the Uyghurs are no longer put in concentration camps on trumped-up charges of "terrorism" (read: Islam; it's almost as if whodey were Chinese, so transparent is the lie), no Chinese person should even think about splitting any other country, let alone mention it out loud.
    Once those injustices are repaired, you might go on to Russia, which is also doing its level best to get its erstwhile coolies back under, if not its direct rule, then at least Putin's leaden thumb. And only then might you consider splitting the States - and reject it, for the reasons given above.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
    Misfit Queen
    Isle of Misfit Toys
    Joined
    08 Aug '03
    Moves
    35841
    27 Feb '19 09:48
    @duchess64 said
    This 'modest proposal' has nothing to do about seceding to protect slavery.
    As I wrote, an independent California likely would become 'progressive' faster,
    in contrast to Suzianne's state of Arizona.

    If the USA became divided into more than one country, then it would in a weaker
    position to use its military to attack and dominate much of the rest of the world.
    Most Americans presumably would believe that would be a great loss.
    I must say that I did not expect such a pathetic answer to my question. I've never been so disgusted by any of your writing in the past.

    I must assume that you would be entirely delighted should Americans push themselves to the brink of annihilation over their differences, just so that the object of your abject hatred - my homeland and my people - should cease to exist.

    And for your information, as you appear to believe that my intellect is no match for your own, I am deeply embarrassed by the treatment of native populations by my government, be they Native Hawaiian or Cherokee. To assume otherwise shows the degree to which you do not know me.
  14. Joined
    23 Nov '11
    Moves
    23118
    27 Feb '19 13:58
    The deep divisions in the U.S. might well be a bit overblown by the press. I find it interesting that Beto O'Rourke came close to beating Ted Cruz for a senate seat in Texas.
  15. Joined
    29 Dec '08
    Moves
    6788
    27 Feb '19 16:391 edit
    @duchess64 said
    Thanks for understanding rather than responding with knee-jerk rejection or hated.
    My 'modest proposal' is aspirational, a 'thought experiment', an intellectual exercise.
    It's no more of a concrete plan the the 'Green New Deal', which several writers here
    already seem to have embraced.
    As a thought experiment it could be useful. After sleeping on it, I imagine, however, that as a genuine project it would be like brexit to the xth power in complexity where x = the number of new nations. We just might not be smart enough to do it right.
Back to Top