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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    11 Jun '12 02:07
    I don't know whether there are enough British people [or people who have lived in Britain and observed the British people/society close up] on this forum to make a discussion viable, but it's worth a try. Here's the thoughtful article from http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk from which the thread title is plucked.

    Do the British people still exist? When the Queen ascended the throne in 1952 her subjects, for all their class and regional and even national differences, thought of themselves quite consciously as forming a community and sharing a culture—a people with certain things in common and a special allegiance to one another.

    The British, although an “old” people, were also busily renewing themselves in the early 1950s—the BBC and especially the NHS were both recent inventions and the welfare state and national service gave Britishness a solid grounding in everyday life.

    To most of us, most of the time, national identity is no more than a background noise, but in the post-war decade it was quite a loud noise. I recently met a senior civil servant who remembers as a boy at a west country grammar school in the 1950s deciding to become a scientist inspired by the early developments in civilian nuclear power; he saw this explicitly as an exciting national project that he wanted to be part of.

    A lot has happened in the past 60 years to muffle or disrupt that background hum—economic and cultural globalisation, European integration, large-scale immigration, devolution, the decline of external threats and above all the vast increase in incomes which has allowed us to live freer, more mobile and less collectivist lives. The very phrase “the British people” now sounds anachronistic, associated with Michael Foot or Enoch Powell back in the 1970s.

    There is often a sense of regret about that weakening of national identity, especially among older people; and politicians in the past decade or so have tried with limited success to halt or even reverse the process.

    They are right to try. Living in a rich, individualistic and diverse country with what seems like fewer opportunities to see fellow citizens as collaborators in a common project, ordinary national feeling has become a progressive and binding force. Collective action is easier when people share at least elements of a common culture and ascribe to some common norms. And many of the things that we take for granted—democratic accountability, equal rights, the welfare state, redistribution between regions, classes and generations—not only take place within a national idiom but are underpinned by an idea of the specialness of fellow national citizens.

    Yet, as Michael Sandel has put it: “In our public life, we are more entangled, but less attached, than ever before.” We need some sense of “emotional citizenship” to underpin those political and welfare transactions even while repudiating the racial and chauvinistic form of nationalism that was the norm in 1952 (well described in David Kynaston’s Family Britain: 1951-1957).

    And the raw material of national attachment still seems to be there even if we, especially the English, struggle to find a comfortable way of expressing it. The number of people who were very proud to be British fell from 57 per cent in 1981 to 45 per cent in 2003. But the number who felt “somewhat” proud or very proud in 2003 was still a healthy 86 per cent. This does not look like a crisis of national identity even if people are now identifying more strongly with their core country—England, Scotland or Wales.

    What seems to be happening is that national expression is adapting to a more fluid and individualistic society, one with fewer collective projects or the kind of external threats that inspire solidarity. It is like the shedding of a skin: as we move further away from the purposes and symbols of one national period—the British imperial and then post-imperial period—we gradually take on the shape of another.

    Britishness itself is less intensely felt than in the first half of the 20th century, which leads naturally to a looser relationship between the constituent nations, possibly including independence or home rule for Scotland. It is also perhaps less focussed on the formal symbols of a top-down Britishness—flag, royal family and so on—and more on the common life of citizens. According to a recent Demos pamphlet “A Place for Pride,” less than a third of people strongly agree that the Queen makes them proud of Britain; they are proud nonetheless.

    What about the emergence of England in this story? For most of the Queen’s reign England and Britain have been interchangeable for the majority of her English subjects, and English nationalism has been the preserve of eccentrics and extremists and largely shunned by the elite.

    The English imperial elite in the 19th and early 20th century often saw nationalism itself as something rather vulgar, for lesser breeds. This disdain for the national came to be adopted in more recent decades by left-wing and liberal England, reinforced by guilt about empire and anti-racism.

    Indeed, one of the reasons that England and Englishness has struggled to emerge from under a British blanket is that it has been a dominant nationalism in an egalitarian age—it cannot draw on the small-nation solidarity of the Irish or Danes or the anti-colonial spirit of many countries in Africa and Asia.

    The English are only semi-literate in the language of modern national identity but the Scots, by rearranging the union, present an opportunity for the English to learn to speak it normally and robustly, like the Scots do themselves. What might that mean? A national story which sees England as special but not superior; a blurring of the rigid distinction between civic (political) and ethnic forms of identification; an understanding that there are many ways to be English; and finally more public and institutional forms for the expression of that moderate English national feeling.

    Out of this could be emerging a new sense of English national identity, with a residual Britishness for state occasions. It will be weaker than in 1952 but more open, and could help to keep the show on the road. I think Her Majesty would approve.
  2. 11 Jun '12 08:23 / 1 edit
    Not sure if we can afford to lose the less tribal identity of British, which would be fine in terms of our relationship with our neighbours, unfortunately there are many of our citizens who understandably find the label of English too ethnically distant from their own view of themselves.

    I think it would be a much easier task for our multi cultural society to find a modern British identity, but maybe that is because I think of myself as British/English rather than the other way around due to my own mongrel heritage.
  3. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    11 Jun '12 13:28 / 9 edits
    The word "British" is used in so many different ways its meaning here is unclear. I think you mean nationalism for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland right?

    Other possibilities might include only the people on the island of Great Britain (excluding the North Irish), only the people in Britain itself (English and Welsh), or ethnic Britons (Welsh, Cornwall and Brittany in France).

    This Welsh dude from the BNP comes to mind:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1b9J8D3tOg

    Also this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j617mImHVvk

    Bit of trivia - Saxons are named after the seax, a fighting dagger. Saxon means "the people of the dagger".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:*Seax_with_replica.jpg

    Remove the *

    The name "English" is much less sinister. It probably has something to do with fishing - related to the word "Angler".
  4. 11 Jun '12 15:10
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The word "British" is used in so many different ways its meaning here is unclear. I think you mean nationalism for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland right?

    Other possibilities might include only the people on the island of Great Britain (excluding the North Irish), only the people in Britain itself (English and Welsh), or et ...[text shortened]... sinister. It probably has something to do with fishing - related to the word "Angler".
    Yeah the first video is why the label English would be unacceptable to a large minority of citizens as it is more associated as a tribal/ethnic classification than British.

    As for the gene thing I am surprised it is that clear cut, for the level of incoming migration since the saxons arrived, from the vikings and normans (I know they were vikings too) to the present day immigrants.
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    11 Jun '12 15:24 / 1 edit
    The news does like to exaggerate dramatic-sounding details.

    I think to many of us outside of the UK "British" means "ethnically associated with the UK".

    Or maybe it could be subjects of the Queen of the UK.

    Maybe it should be called the UQ?

    Or maybe ethnically associated with the British Isles which means Irish too?
  6. 11 Jun '12 15:46
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The news does like to exaggerate dramatic-sounding details.

    I think to many of us outside of the UK "British" means "ethnically associated with the UK".

    Or maybe it could be subjects of the Queen of the UK.

    Maybe it should be called the UQ?

    Or maybe ethnically associated with the British Isles which means Irish too?
    Here it means 'of' these islands and an identification with the union jack rather than this or that ethnic group, it is when you get to English, Scottish, whelsh, irish, and arguably cornish that the tribal fun and games begin.
  7. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    11 Jun '12 15:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    Here it means 'of' these islands and an identification with the union jack
    That makes sense.

    What about the Muslims in Wembley? Are they British?
  8. 11 Jun '12 16:36
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    That makes sense.

    What about the Muslims in Wembley? Are they British?
    most of them look like first generation but it is hard to tell, I would call them british muslims, but it is what they call themselves that matters, I do Know muslims who classify themselves that way but they tend to be 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th generation.

    Some identify with their ethnic roots plus british, but I have never heard anyone identify themselves as something/english. That is not say they dont exist.
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    11 Jun '12 17:27
    Is there any relationship between Christianity and being British?

    More trivia: the legal name for what is geographically Britain is this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_and_Wales
  10. 11 Jun '12 17:44
    No I do not think so even under roman catholic unity we had an Arch Bishop of England etc, whilst the constituent parts were very religious in themselves.
  11. 12 Jun '12 01:52
    Nations usually share tribal origins, culture, including religion and language. When nations grow into multi-ethnic empires they fairly quickly lose their national unity and balkanize.
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    14 Jun '12 15:09 / 1 edit
    The Union Jack is a combination of the English, Scottish and (north) Irish flags, each of which is a Christian cross. When you superimpose the three crosses of St. Andrews (Scottish), St George (English) and St Patrick (Irish) you get the Union Jack.

    Does this bother British Muslims or do they identify with the Union Jack anyway?
  13. 14 Jun '12 18:12
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    The Union Jack is a combination of the English, Scottish and (north) Irish flags, each of which is a Christian cross. When you superimpose the three crosses of St. Andrews (Scottish), St George (English) and St Patrick (Irish) you get the Union Jack.

    Does this bother British Muslims or do they identify with the Union Jack anyway?
    I cannot answer for british muslims, but I would like to hear their justification for feeling aggrieved, given that the strong feelings we have for the jack has nothing to do with religion.

    Ironically perhaps most muslims that air an opinion complain that britain is not christian enough. So they and the devout christians in britain have that in common.
  14. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    14 Jun '12 20:02 / 1 edit
    I think Wales should declare that King Arthur has returned from Avalon and invade England.

    This is interesting and relevant:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Wales_Act_2006
  15. 14 Jun '12 21:15
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    I think Wales should declare that King Arthur has returned from Avalon and invade England.

    This is interesting and relevant:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Wales_Act_2006
    If he returns from Avalon we will invade everybody again, as it is they can go or they can stay it is up to them, not sure how economically viable they would be.