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  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    21 Aug '15 13:12 / 1 edit
    CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — A New Hampshire prep school that has educated some of the nation's elite is confronting a campus practice of sexual conquest after a senior boy was charged with raping a 15-year-old freshman girl last year.
    In a series of letters over the past year to students and parents of St. Paul's School, Rector Michael Hirschfeld says the school has re-examined campus culture to see how the "Senior Salute" was allowed to develop.
    Nineteen-year-old Owen Labrie of Tunbridge, Vermont, is charged with multiple felonies, including rape. Prosecutors say he raped the girl in an academic building last year as part of "Senior Salute," in which seniors try to have sex with underclassman.


    http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Trial-takes-a-day-off-in-New-Hampshire-prep-6457057.php

    This point was touched on in the other "rape" thread, but this headline implies what, in my view, is an important question.

    I think everyone would agree that the western world has become much more sexually open in the past several decades. Is more rape simply a cost associated with that freedom? Would the "senior salute" have happened in the 1950s? Could one tactic in the war against rape be to rollback some of the sexual openness that is now almost a given in our society? I'm not talking about legislating away sexual freedom, of course. I'm talking about culture. If we stopped glorifying sexual conquest and complete sexual abandon and maybe became a little more, dare I say, prudish, would that decrease instances of rape?
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    21 Aug '15 13:51 / 1 edit
    I'm not sure if the article supports that hookup culture lead to rape. There seems to be no indication of sex against the girl's will. Though that's still rape, a distinction should be made between statutory rape, and what the OP is discussing, which is rape by force.
  3. 21 Aug '15 13:59
    Originally posted by sh76
    I think everyone would agree that the western world has become much more sexually open in the past several decades. Is more rape simply a cost associated with that freedom?
    Before you ask that question you first need to establish that there is "more rape." I'm not convinced that this is the case; rather, I would suspect the opposite is true since women are much more likely to report a rape to the police, thus discouraging potential rapists.
  4. 21 Aug '15 14:06
    Originally posted by sh76
    [quote]CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — A New Hampshire prep school that has educated some of the nation's elite is confronting a campus practice of sexual conquest after a senior boy was charged with raping a 15-year-old freshman girl last year.
    In a series of letters over the past year to students and parents of St. Paul's School, Rector Michael Hirschfeld says the scho ...[text shortened]... ndon and maybe became a little more, dare I say, prudish, would that decrease instances of rape?
    we don't have more rape. we have more rape victims actually reporting rape.
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    21 Aug '15 14:08
    Originally posted by sh76
    [quote]CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — A New Hampshire prep school that has educated some of the nation's elite is confronting a campus practice of sexual conquest after a senior boy was charged with raping a 15-year-old freshman girl last year.
    In a series of letters over the past year to students and parents of St. Paul's School, Rector Michael Hirschfeld says the scho ...[text shortened]... ndon and maybe became a little more, dare I say, prudish, would that decrease instances of rape?
    Why wouldn't it have happened in the 1950s or long before? Teenage boys seeking sexual "conquests" is hardly a recent development nor is it confined to Western culture.
  6. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    21 Aug '15 14:20
    Originally posted by sh76
    [quote]CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — A New Hampshire prep school that has educated some of the nation's elite is confronting a campus practice of sexual conquest after a senior boy was charged with raping a 15-year-old freshman girl last year.
    In a series of letters over the past year to students and parents of St. Paul's School, Rector Michael Hirschfeld says the scho ...[text shortened]... ndon and maybe became a little more, dare I say, prudish, would that decrease instances of rape?
    Far from more rape, the statistics show the opposite:

    The number of rapes per capita in the United States has plunged by more than 85 percent since the 1970s, and reported rape fell last year even while other violent offenses increased, according to federal crime data.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html (2006 data)

    Reported rapes have fallen to the lowest level in 20 years

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-10-06-rape-decline_N.htm (2008 data)
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    21 Aug '15 14:20
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Why wouldn't it have happened in the 1950s or long before? Teenage boys seeking sexual "conquests" is hardly a recent development nor is it confined to Western culture.
    This is anectodal, of course, but I grew up in a very sexually timid environment wherein schools were separated by gender and sex before marriage was considered taboo. I'm not saying that's an ideal world, but teen rape was completely non-existent. The opportunity simply wasn't there. Boys and girls weren't allowed to be together unsupervised.
  8. 21 Aug '15 14:21 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    [quote]CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — A New Hampshire prep school that has educated some of the nation's elite is confronting a campus practice of sexual conquest after a senior boy was charged with raping a 15-year-old freshman girl last year.
    In a series of letters over the past year to students and parents of St. Paul's School, Rector Michael Hirschfeld says the scho ...[text shortened]... ndon and maybe became a little more, dare I say, prudish, would that decrease instances of rape?
    Two words, abu ghraib

    This never would have happened during WW2.

    Game, set, match.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    21 Aug '15 14:23
    Originally posted by sh76
    This is anectodal, of course, but I grew up in a very sexually timid environment wherein schools were separated by gender and sex before marriage was considered taboo. I'm not saying that's an ideal world, but teen rape was completely non-existent. The opportunity simply wasn't there. Boys and girls weren't allowed to be together unsupervised.
    Taboos get broken all the time esp. by teenagers. I doubt such measures were as effective on everybody as they apparently were on you.
  10. 21 Aug '15 14:45
    Originally posted by sh76
    This is anectodal, of course, but I grew up in a very sexually timid environment wherein schools were separated by gender and sex before marriage was considered taboo. I'm not saying that's an ideal world, but teen rape was completely non-existent. The opportunity simply wasn't there. Boys and girls weren't allowed to be together unsupervised.
    Would you think that taboo would make it more or less likely that a girl steps forward after being the victim of a rape? Where do you think rape is more common, in sexually free societies with empowered women (e.g. Northern Europe) or in countries like Afghanistan or Iran?
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    21 Aug '15 15:41
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Would you think that taboo would make it more or less likely that a girl steps forward after being the victim of a rape? Where do you think rape is more common, in sexually free societies with empowered women (e.g. Northern Europe) or in countries like Afghanistan or Iran?
    Less likely to step forward, yes, but also less likely to happen in the first place.

    ===Where do you think rape is more common, in sexually free societies with empowered women (e.g. Northern Europe) or in countries like Afghanistan or Iran?===

    I don't know; maybe the former.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#/media/File:Rape_rate_per_100,000_-_country_comparison_-_United_Nations_2012.png

    But anyway, you subtly introduced two very different variables into your sentence:

    1. sexually free societies

    2. societies with empowered women

    I think the fewest rapes would occur in a society that is sexually prudish and one in which women are empowered with absolute equality. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    I don't think anyone on this forum would ague that empowering women is a bad thing.
  12. 21 Aug '15 16:19
    Originally posted by sh76

    I think the fewest rapes would occur in a society that is sexually prudish [...]
    Why do you think so?
  13. 21 Aug '15 17:59 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    I'm not sure if the article supports that hookup culture lead to rape. There seems to be no indication of sex against the girl's will.
    Though that's still rape, a distinction should be made between statutory rape, and what the OP is discussing, which is rape by force.
    "There seems to be no indication of sex against the girl's will."
    --Vivify

    The girl has testified differently in court (though Vivify may prefer to believe she's lying).
    She has said that she *did* resist sexual intercourse verbally, though not physically.

    "I didn't kick or scream or really push ... but *I did say no, I said no three times.*"
    --alleged rape victim (who was 15 years old when it happened to her)

    Although she may have accepted his initial sexual advances (she said that she did not expect
    anything more intimate than kissing), once she said 'no', he should have stopped immediately.

    "I was raped. I was violated in so many ways."
    --alleged rape victim
  14. 21 Aug '15 18:07
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "There seems to be no indication of sex against the girl's will."
    --Vivify

    The girl has testified differently in court (though Vivify may prefer to believe she's lying).
    She has said that she *did* resist sexual intercourse verbally, though not physically.

    "I didn't kick or scream or really push ... but *I did say no, I said no three times.*"
    -- ...[text shortened]... stopped immediately.

    "I was raped. I was violated in so many ways."
    --alleged rape victim
    I have no problem convicting someone of rape if one person says no and the other continues against their will.
    But to me there seems to be a credibility problem -- why exactly would you not "kick or scream or really push" if you believed you were being raped? To me this is exactly the type of case where you need to examine the actions of the women to see if truly did not consent.
  15. 21 Aug '15 18:13 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sh76 to KazetNagorra
    Less likely to step forward, yes, but also less likely to happen in the first place.

    ===Where do you think rape is more common, in sexually free societies with empowered women (e.g. Northern Europe) or in countries like Afghanistan or Iran?===

    I don't know; maybe the former.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#/media/File:Rape ...[text shortened]... clusive.

    I don't think anyone on this forum would ague that empowering women is a bad thing.
    I suspect that some women readers can see through some naive claims by the men here.
    This male-dominated forum has a common culture of sexism or misogyny, and it's far
    from friendly or even tolerant of any views perceived as 'contaminated' by feminism.

    "I don't think anyone on this forum would argue that empowering women is a bad thing."
    --Sh76

    Perhaps no man would dare to argue that *explicitly*, but there are many men here who
    seem to feel extremely threatened (and often respond abusively) by any women who are
    empowered enough to criticize them or otherwise act in ways of which they disapprove.

    There are men here (particularly conservative Christians in the Spirituality forum) who
    evidently strongly prefer that women (or insist that 'their women' ) conform to traditional
    feminine stereotypes of docility and subservience to men.

    And I suspect that hardly any of the men here has read much from the vast diverse academic
    literature of feminism or would take seriously any perspective accurately described as 'feminist'.