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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    12 May '16 14:20
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gay-marriage-won-but-other-liberal-causes-might-struggle-to-copy-its-success/

    Interesting article by Daniel Cox on 538 explaining why the success of gay marriage does not necessarily portend greater movement on issues such as abortion access and action on climate change.

    I would agree for the simple reason that, in spite of some rhetoric used by the religious right, gay marriage doesn't really hurt anybody. Abortion, on the other hand, does actually kill what many people would consider human life, while action on climate change would have very real economic consequences and would cause suffering to those who earn their living in the fossil fuel industry.
  2. 12 May '16 18:06
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gay-marriage-won-but-other-liberal-causes-might-struggle-to-copy-its-success/

    Interesting article by Daniel Cox on 538 explaining why the success of gay marriage does not necessarily portend greater movement on issues such as abortion access and action on climate change.

    I would agree for the simple reason that, in spit ...[text shortened]... nsequences and would cause suffering to those who earn their living in the fossil fuel industry.
    I think the success of gay marriage will herald changes against religious/ moral/ traditional arguments. I could see success on transgender, bigamy issues not merely because of their logic extension but because of the way arguments are framed.
  3. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    12 May '16 18:18 / 1 edit
    Well we already have a black president and a woman has won her primary. It seems people are talking more seriously about minimum incomes too.

    And we have Obamacare.
  4. 12 May '16 18:34
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gay-marriage-won-but-other-liberal-causes-might-struggle-to-copy-its-success/

    Interesting article by Daniel Cox on 538 explaining why the success of gay marriage does not necessarily portend greater movement on issues such as abortion access and action on climate change.

    I would agree for the simple reason that, in spit ...[text shortened]... nsequences and would cause suffering to those who earn their living in the fossil fuel industry.
    I don't know how "success" is to be measured.

    If "success" is measured by traditional marriage's success, it might be that heterosexual marriage is in trouble.

    How about other institutions, such as police? Is our policing "successful"? How? If it isn't, how do we replace it?
  5. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    12 May '16 20:09
    Originally posted by normbenign
    If "success" is measured by traditional marriage's success, it might be that heterosexual marriage is in trouble.
    Why should "success" be measured by only one aspect of it?

    And why would traditional heterosexual marriage be "in trouble" just because another set of humans is afforded the exact same right?

    This is like rich people complaining if the incomes of the poor rose as well.

    People should be looking to increase the "pool" of success rather than measure their own success by the sheer numbers of other groups who do not enjoy the same right.
  6. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    13 May '16 09:31 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gay-marriage-won-but-other-liberal-causes-might-struggle-to-copy-its-success/

    Interesting article by Daniel Cox on 538 explaining why the success of gay marriage does not necessarily portend greater movement on issues such as abortion access and action on climate change.

    I would agree for the simple reason that, in spit ...[text shortened]... nsequences and would cause suffering to those who earn their living in the fossil fuel industry.
    I think you'll find the changes in attitude on abortion and climate change will happen as well, but this may be a generation or two down the line.

    As our population continues to rise, this will become more common. The (so called) pro life folks could would almost certainly find more support for their cause, if they demonstrated even 1% of the concern for these children's lives after the children were born as they did before.

    As far as climate change goes, it's going to become painfully clear that the economic consequences of dealing with climate change will be many times greater than dealing with the jobs lost in the fossil fuel industry, many of which can be retrained to work in fields such as construction, and clean energy, such as solar and wind power. The oil and coal lobby will fight this tooth and nail of course, but in the end they will lose.

    Changes such as this are often hard fought, and time consuming. Let's remember that it was not long ago, that parents were withdrawing their children from schools bearing the name "Roosevelt" because FDR instituted Federal Deposit Insurance to guarantee our bank deposits, child labor laws, the minimum wage, and other things we take for granted today, but were branded by republicans as socialist policies that would destroy America's capitalist system.
  7. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 May '16 18:38
    Originally posted by sh76
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gay-marriage-won-but-other-liberal-causes-might-struggle-to-copy-its-success/

    Interesting article by Daniel Cox on 538 explaining why the success of gay marriage does not necessarily portend greater movement on issues such as abortion access and action on climate change.

    I would agree for the simple reason that, in spit ...[text shortened]... nsequences and would cause suffering to those who earn their living in the fossil fuel industry.
    Ignoring the threat of climate change will have catastrophic effects for many millions of people. The "suffering" inflicted upon fossil fuel workers will pale in comparison.
  8. 13 May '16 18:43
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Ignoring the threat of climate change will have catastrophic effects for many millions of people. The "suffering" inflicted upon fossil fuel workers will pale in comparison.
    Let us not forget the current suffering of everyone as a result of fossil fuel pollution. Air pollution is a major killer.
  9. 13 May '16 18:46
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Why should "success" be measured by only one aspect of it?

    And why would traditional heterosexual marriage be "in trouble" just because another set of humans is afforded the exact same right?

    This is like rich people complaining if the incomes of the poor rose as well.

    People should be looking to increase the "pool" of success rather than measure their own success by the sheer numbers of other groups who do not enjoy the same right.
    Understand that I was not comparing the two types of marriage.

    I don't think homosexual marriage has any negative effect on hetero marriage.

    My question regarding "success" goes to both sides, and to other issues as well.

    If you read my original post carefully, it is hetero marriage that may be in trouble if we judge by success. The number of divorces suggest a less than successful marriage.

    A question worth posing is, are things proper because they are judged successful? Putting it another way, can we do improper things successfully?
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    14 May '16 12:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Understand that I was not comparing the two types of marriage.

    I don't think homosexual marriage has any negative effect on hetero marriage.

    My question regarding "success" goes to both sides, and to other issues as well.

    If you read my original post carefully, it is hetero marriage that may be in trouble if we judge by success. The number o ...[text shortened]... se they are judged successful? Putting it another way, can we do improper things successfully?
    Putting it another way, can we do improper things successfully?


    Where would you like this historical survey to even start? History includes (thought it is not restricted to) a triumphant march of improper things.

    Maybe you need some constraints. The Greeks thought one could not judge a successful life before the subject has died. It is always possible for things to change radically and negate all past achievements. The famous book "In Search of Excellence" describes the triumphant success of a list of companies that subsequently failed but people still think we ought to emulate their example.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    15 May '16 01:55
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Ignoring the threat of climate change will have catastrophic effects for many millions of people. The "suffering" inflicted upon fossil fuel workers will pale in comparison.
    Perhaps, but the effects aren't immediate enough to invalidate Cox' (or my) point.
  12. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    15 May '16 02:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76

    while action on climate change would have very real economic consequences and would cause suffering to those who earn their living in the fossil fuel industry.
    Depends on the action of course but really this should read:

    ...while action on climate change would have very real economic consequences and would cause suffering to those who depend on the fossil fuel industry.

    And this goes all the way through to the ink the greeny lefty type protestors use on their signs. They should just use some mud and smear it on with their fingers.

    But it will especially cause suffering in developing nations where people really are living on the edge and any artificial taxes, levies, price controls have a major effect on what people can afford.

    Let them eat dirt eh.
  13. 15 May '16 17:06
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Depends on the action of course but really this should read:

    ...while action on climate change would have very real economic consequences and would cause suffering to those who depend on the fossil fuel industry.

    And this goes all the way through to the ink the greeny lefty type protestors use on their signs. They should just use some mud and smear it ...[text shortened]... , levies, price controls have a major effect on what people can afford.

    Let them eat dirt eh.
    The question, as always, is "Whose ox is being gored?"

    Most often a positive action for some ends up being a negative for countless others. Who decides?