Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    15 May '19 23:41
    @kazetnagorra said
    Well, if we're going to be making up numbers as we go, why keep it at 30%? Let's go for 50% or even 80%!
    I did not make up one number. I learn as I go, and I am reading a book, 'The Upside of Inequality" (Ed Conard), and I too was surprised . This is likely a correct number, for this respected author to have put it forever in his book. This specific entry clearly cites such numbers, and I guess we are 30^% richer than people in germany, because middle class americans earn 30% more than the citizens of Germany. Its in the book!

    I thought about making it 80%, but there is enough puffing and misrepresentation in these threads. 🤔 Plus, it is hard enough to keep up with the convoluted reasoning of Socialist fans. Millenials and others actually do like the idea of dependency on government., Best stay on point. 2PM tomorrow is a special on Capitalism vs Socialism, on Fox Business News.

    All of yall can rail on about abortion, or if the NRA is going down, but these parasitic proponents of changing america are really stirring things up. You see, they dont know that out country is by far the best place to live and raise a family. And you can save your money to support your family rather than someone else's. That gives me a really good feeling. Ayn Rand had a lot of good points. One favorite line of mine, that was not in her books, but should have been.."Some people work harder than others".
  2. Zugzwang
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    15 May '19 23:47
    @averagejoe1 said
    Whatever you say. I do think that Trump, contrary to your findings, is dead RIGHT about most facts. Witness his many successes in turning this country on such a track. Took a knowledge of facts, to start with.

    Since you bring Trump up, middle class in the US earn 30% more than the highest earners in, say, Germany and other European countries. We have a much higher st ...[text shortened]... ker room talk) He doesn’t drink or smoke, no drugs like Obama, not a rapist like Bill. How bout you?
    Given that Averagejoe1 keeps showing that he's abysmally or willfully ignorant (at best)
    of facts or flagrantly dishonest about them, he's unqualified to laud his hero, Donald Trump,
    for supposedly being 'dead RIGHT about most facts' (to quote Averagejoe1).

    Averagejoe1 is an extremely deluded right-wing troll and not even an amusing troll.
  3. Joined
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    16 May '19 00:24
    @duchess64 said
    Given that Averagejoe1 keeps showing that he's abysmally or willfully ignorant (at best)
    of facts or flagrantly dishonest about them, he's unqualified to laud his hero, Donald Trump,
    for supposedly being 'dead RIGHT about most facts' (to quote Averagejoe1).

    Averagejoe1 is an extremely deluded right-wing troll and not even an amusing troll.
    I'm sorry, mea culpa. I still am learning my way around, I guess. You get to say Trump is 'Dead Wrong on most facts'. But, you admonish me for daring to say Trump is dead Right on most facts. I will try to figure that one out.

    Please bear with me, not many cons on these threads, just a bunch of folks preaching to the choir, as it were. Some european guy will take me to task about the mexican border, be sweet to the invaders. He is in a country, Germany, where Blacks make up only .05% of the population, and I have to sit here and type to HIM? A real authority, cant wait to get his take, you know? Then there is a Norway guy, does the same thing, I have never seen a mexican or a black person there, it is the whitest country in the world, yet he brags about how sweet life is there.

    You get my drift. Then, you tell me I am ignorant of facts, or dishonest?
  4. Zugzwang
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    16 May '19 02:25
    @averagejoe1 said
    I'm sorry, mea culpa. I still am learning my way around, I guess. You get to say Trump is 'Dead Wrong on most facts'. But, you admonish me for daring to say Trump is dead Right on most facts. I will try to figure that one out.

    Please bear with me, not many cons on these threads, just a bunch of folks preaching to the choir, as it were. Some european guy will take ...[text shortened]... w sweet life is there.

    You get my drift. Then, you tell me I am ignorant of facts, or dishonest?
    Averagejoe1 apparently has no comprehension that facts cannot be derived from
    his extremely limited (if not willfully ignorant) anecdotal personal experience.

    "Then there is a Norway guy, does the same thing, I have never seen a mexican or a black person
    there, it is the whitest country in the world, yet he brags about how sweet life is there."
    --Averagejoe1

    From memory, Anne Brown was a prominent black Norwegian (who chose to become a Norwegian citizen).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Brown

    "Brown toured Europe as a concert artist from 1942 to 1948. Brown said that she
    left the United States because of continued racial prejudice. ... She also stated that
    she felt her singing was better received in Europe because she mainly sang works
    by European composers, such as Brahms, Schubert, Schumann and Mahler.[6]"
  5. Germany
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    16 May '19 06:33
    @averagejoe1 said
    I did not make up one number. I learn as I go, and I am reading a book, 'The Upside of Inequality" (Ed Conard), and I too was surprised . This is likely a correct number, for this respected author to have put it forever in his book. This specific entry clearly cites such numbers, and I guess we are 30^% richer than people in germany, because middle class americans earn ...[text shortened]... ine of mine, that was not in her books, but should have been.."Some people work harder than others".
    It's true that median household income in the US is higher than in Germany. It is not true, as you claimed, that "middle class in the US earn 30% more than the highest earners in, say, Germany and other European countries." One, you weren't comparing only to Germany, two, you were comparing 'middle class' to 'highest earners,' and three, only looking at income paints an incomplete picture. It is not true that people are overall better off in the US compared to Germany as you suggested, and Germany is not even close to being the most prosperous nation state in Europe.
  6. Standard memberLundos
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    16 May '19 06:44
    @averagejoe1 said
    I did not make up one number. I learn as I go, and I am reading a book, 'The Upside of Inequality" (Ed Conard), and I too was surprised . This is likely a correct number, for this respected author to have put it forever in his book. This specific entry clearly cites such numbers, and I guess we are 30^% richer than people in germany, because middle class americans earn ...[text shortened]... ine of mine, that was not in her books, but should have been.."Some people work harder than others".
    Ayn Rand, Lou Dobbs and Fox Business.

    It all makes sense.
  7. Joined
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    16 May '19 07:211 edit
    @duchess64 said
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/trumps-tariffs-show-he-doesnt-get-how-trade-works/589351/

    "How Trump Thinks Tariffs Work (And How They Actually Work)
    To make the case for his trade war with China, the president is
    relying on blatant falsehoods and misconceptions."

    "In his mercantilist, protectionist understanding of the world, trade
    wars are goo ...[text shortened]... ain exporting businesses are
    about to face a much tougher climate, all thanks to the White House."
    Let's get a couple of things straight:

    1. Tariffs cause a deadweight loss and reduce consumer surplus.
    2. Protectionism can be useful as a tool for developing countries to nurture more advanced industries in their upstart phase. Not the case with America.
    3. Donald Trump is overestimating the strength of the U.S economy (although I was surprised at the strength of the Q1 data), as the strong data reflects the tax cuts and deficit spending of the Trump administration, the effect of which cannot last forever.
    4. Wars of any kind are usually a bad thing, but once one has started, even if nobody becomes better off than at the start, there is usually a side that is less affected. At this point in time, China is absolutely being affected more than America by the trade war. The only question is whether it is good for America in the long run (I doubt it), or whether this trend will continue (unclear). China's economy is in deep trouble. The tariffs are probably shaving off ~2% of China's annual growth, if not more. I would be surprised if the underlying pace is much above 4.5% (if not lower), which for China is practically recession.

    China consistently overstates its economic data. That is both the work of regional leaders (who get rewards for meeting targets and so have an incentive to manipulate data) and also the CPC, who do not want to show Donald Trump the extent to which he is damaging China's economy. Of course, any sign of weakness will embolden Trump. This does mean that any "good" data has to be taken with a grain of salt.

    Edit: The EU also has a "mercantilist, protectionist understanding of the world", and has had this for much longer than Trump's America, yet few people here are consistent enough in their principles to criticize it.
  8. Joined
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    16 May '19 07:24
    @lundos said
    Ayn Rand, Lou Dobbs and Fox Business.

    It all makes sense.
    @Lundos

    I'd be interested to hear what you think of the state of the Chinese and American economies and the effect of the trade war on both of them.
  9. Standard memberLundos
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    16 May '19 08:011 edit
    @ashiitaka said
    @Lundos

    I'd be interested to hear what you think of the state of the Chinese and American economies and the effect of the trade war on both of them.
    I think it's much bigger than just the trade wars. Some of the people behind Trump can calculate and they have seen something (either in the US or the Chinese economy) to make this a good time to attack.

    In the pure economic sense I agree with your post above this. There is a bigger picture we have to consider too that I think is part of the 'war' with China. I'll try and keep each point short.

    1. The Great Recession in 2008 showed most of the world that it's very important to have in-country industry. At least to off-set the fluctuations, but more importantly to secure GDP and jobs. The outsourcing wave in the late 1990s and early 2000s was wrong for a lot of companies and hurt the US Economy a lot in a longer run. The corporate leaders should never have gotten their bonuses and tax cuts if all they did was scr3w their country. Bringing production industry back to the US by making sure American consumers buy American produced products (albeit at a higher price) is one way to do it.

    2. There's a lot of talk about China lying about their data. This is no-go in an international integrated economic situation. The IMF e.g. lost when it started buying CNY. If China is weak(ish) then it might be the time to strike.

    3. Tech war. There's a technology arms race going on at the moment, where we have some huge disruptive effects if you can get it to work. AI and other Advanced Robotics, DNA and Gene Therapy (e.g. fixing obesity),

    3. The Cyber war have been going on for a long time. By contracting the Chinese economy this could be one the areas they might save money.

    4. Patent ownership, trade marks, and intellectual property rights. There's a long history of China breaking the rules, though, measures from President Xi Jinping have been implemented.

    5. Space Race. Trump have mentioned a Space force multiple times. There's a reason for this. Who knows what the benefit of leading the Human race into longer space travel? At least as a weapon on Earth this can be beneficial.

    6. Politics. Trump is all about having the biggest d1ck. This is a way for him to show it. Of course, letting American consumers pay for it is not really the way I would go about it.

    EDIT: 7. Some of Trump's backers probably have a personal economic interest in making China weaker.

    All in all I think the tariff part of the trade war is a minor issue. It's a big gamble, though, and could just as easily blow up in Trump's face.
  10. Joined
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    16 May '19 09:06
    @kazetnagorra said
    It's true that median household income in the US is higher than in Germany. It is not true, as you claimed, that "middle class in the US earn 30% more than the highest earners in, say, Germany and other European countries." One, you weren't comparing only to Germany, two, you were comparing 'middle class' to 'highest earners,' and three, only looking at income paints an ...[text shortened]... as you suggested, and Germany is not even close to being the most prosperous nation state in Europe.
    Then you need to call out the author of the book. I guess he is so scared of what some of our more pitiful citizens want to do to this country that he totally lost it and made up some stuff. "The Upside of Inequality'. Why else would he do that?
  11. Joined
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    16 May '19 09:59
    @lundos said
    Ayn Rand, Lou Dobbs and Fox Business.

    It all makes sense.
    Well, they work for me. I have given Rachel Maddow a try, but cannot find a good fit for a guy who believes in independence, minimal govt control, private ownership, free enterprise, self reliance, such as that. Oh yeah, not supporting other people. I'm not very good with groupthink, either. I'm heavy into philanthropy, I don't find that on the 'other side', either. My favorite adage? Some people work harder than other people.
  12. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    16 May '19 10:151 edit
    @averagejoe1 said
    Whatever you say. I do think that Trump, contrary to your findings, is dead RIGHT about most facts. Witness his many successes in turning this country on such a track. Took a knowledge of facts, to start with.

    Since you bring Trump up, middle class in the US earn 30% more than the highest earners in, say, Germany and other European countries. We have a much higher st ...[text shortened]... ker room talk) He doesn’t drink or smoke, no drugs like Obama, not a rapist like Bill. How bout you?
    My Lord.
    You're an embarrassment to the U.S. educational system. It saddens me to see America-haters, like Duchess64, slow walking in logic circles all around your worldly ignorance.

    You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
    You just repeat propaganda points which have been spoon-fed to you for the last 40 years.

    Critical thinking skills: Get them. Use them.
    If you must speak...speak knowledgeably.
  13. Joined
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    16 May '19 12:12
    @wolfe63 said
    My Lord.
    You're an embarrassment to the U.S. educational system. It saddens me to see America-haters, like Duchess64, slow walking in logic circles all around your worldly ignorance.

    You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.
    You just repeat propaganda points which have been spoon-fed to you for the last 40 years.

    Critical thinking skills: Get them. Use them.
    If you must speak...speak knowledgeably.
    I just read, like everyone else. I 'learned'these facts from books, authors, as i mentioned. We are all limited to getting our info from all sorts of sources. There are worlds of stats on the internet, like about the demographics of Germany, but when am I going to have time to play golf and go hiking!?!??

    Get mad at those sources for spreading rumors! I certainly don't 'study' Germany and the like.

    This is no worse than your man Bernie who states things such as "Americans have a constitutional right to Health care!!!!!!" No , they do not. I guess I am like Bernie!
  14. Germany
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    16 May '19 14:50
    @averagejoe1 said
    Then you need to call out the author of the book. I guess he is so scared of what some of our more pitiful citizens want to do to this country that he totally lost it and made up some stuff. "The Upside of Inequality'. Why else would he do that?
    Have you considered the possibility that this author is just seeking to profit from gullible Americans by writing jingoistic feelgood fiction for them?
  15. Joined
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    16 May '19 16:28
    @kazetnagorra said
    Have you considered the possibility that this author is just seeking to profit from gullible Americans by writing jingoistic feelgood fiction for them?
    Well, he quotes sources, so whomsoever that might be must be in cahoots with him, but that is a stretch. I’m sorry if I offended you and your country, I actually didn’t think you when I commented. And certainly there may be people in the US who may find that Germany would offer a better standard of living for them than that which they enjoy here. I would look up the number of US citizens who expatrate (is that a verb 🤔 ) to Germany, but you have seen that I don’t get that stuff right sometimes.
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