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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 17 Jul '12 21:09
    To what degree can liberty exist within a given society if that society is dedicated to "equality"? Would not liberty necessitate the existence of "inequality"? After all, if "equality" is a predetermined construct, then ones liberty must be curbed in order to attain it. Liberty would then be viewed in large part immoral, except if it achieves "equality" or "fairness". Equality in this sense is a form or radical egalitarianism that has long been the suject of grave concern by advocates of liberty.

    As far as the definition of "equality", everyone's is probably different, no matter how small those differences may be. What is important is the definition provided by the state because that is what we all must conform to or pay a price.
  2. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    17 Jul '12 22:01
    Originally posted by whodey
    To what degree can liberty exist within a given society if that society is dedicated to "equality"? Would not liberty necessitate the existence of "inequality"? After all, if "equality" is a predetermined construct, then ones liberty must be curbed in order to attain it. Liberty would then be viewed in large part immoral, except if it achieves "equality" o ...[text shortened]... n provided by the state because that is what we all must conform to or pay a price.
    Your 'liberty' is the liberty of slave holders.
  3. 17 Jul '12 23:08 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Your 'liberty' is the liberty of slave holders.
    You enjoy being forced to buy health insurance from corporate America? Who exactly are the task masters?
  4. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    18 Jul '12 00:21
    Originally posted by whodey
    To what degree can liberty exist within a given society if that society is dedicated to "equality"?
    From the Hastings Center: "Values can be wielded like cudgels to batter your opponents. That, unfortunately, has been all too common in recent political discourse. But values worth taking seriously--including all the values addressed in this collection of essays--are far more subtle, multifaceted, and interesting ideas that can cross political boundaries. Liberty, Bruce Jennings reminds us in an echo of Isaiah Berlin’s classic formulation, includes both freedom from and freedom to--and each of those meanings of liberty deserves attention in health reform. Liberty can mean the freedom from the imposition of a particular health plan and physicians; but it also demands a health care system that does not deny a would-be entrepreneur the freedom to pursue her vision, a freedom not available to the parent of a child with diabetes, for whom health insurance would be unaffordable outside the protective umbrella of a large group policy.... [S]implistic understandings of values are deceptive and harmful to private insight and public discourse. Liberty, properly understood, is not the opposite of equality; justice, not the opposite of liberty; and responsibility, both personal and social, is crucial to the full realization of liberty and justice. Efficiency, an instrumental value rather than an end in itself, is intimately related to quality, solidarity, stewardship, and justice. Core American values, rather than existing in ineluctable tension with one another, form a sturdy, mutually reinforcing foundation for health reform."

    http://www.thehastingscenter.org/uploadedFiles/Publications/Primers/Connecting_American_Values.pdf
  5. 18 Jul '12 00:47
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    From the Hastings Center: "Values can be wielded like cudgels to batter your opponents. That, unfortunately, has been all too common in recent political discourse. But values worth taking seriously--including all the values addressed in this collection of essays--are far more subtle, multifaceted, and interesting ideas that can cross political boundaries. ...[text shortened]... ://www.thehastingscenter.org/uploadedFiles/Publications/Primers/Connecting_American_Values.pdf
    So you are OK with corporate America setting rates and then having the government adjust a tax to make up the difference for those who do not participate? In a round about way, this lets corporate America, the villian on the left, set your tax code.

    Yes, corporate justice and equality. It's our tax dollars and their justice.
  6. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    18 Jul '12 00:49
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    From the Hastings Center: "Values can be wielded like cudgels to batter your opponents. That, unfortunately, has been all too common in recent political discourse. But values worth taking seriously--including all the values addressed in this collection of essays--are far more subtle, multifaceted, and interesting ideas that can cross political boundaries. ...[text shortened]... ://www.thehastingscenter.org/uploadedFiles/Publications/Primers/Connecting_American_Values.pdf
    Not only is liberty not the opposite of equality, the two are closely intertwined. In order to be more than an empty phrase, liberty requires a certain amount of equality. The more inequality there is, the more the lesser party's liberty is restricted to being merely theoretical. In practice, he is at liberty to do whatever the rich man demands of him.
  7. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    18 Jul '12 00:51
    Originally posted by whodey
    So you are OK with corporate America setting rates and then having the government adjust a tax to make up the difference for those who do not participate? In a round about way, this lets corporate America, the villian on the left, set your tax code.

    Yes, corporate justice and equality. It's our tax dollars and their justice.
    Then you should support a national health plan and get corporations out of the business of health care altogether.
  8. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    18 Jul '12 00:58
    Originally posted by whodey
    So you are OK with corporate America setting rates and then having the government adjust a tax to make up the difference for those who do not participate? In a round about way, this lets corporate America, the villian on the left, set your tax code.

    Yes, corporate justice and equality. It's our tax dollars and their justice.
    You should get a job as a mind-reader. I didn't even know I was thinking that.
  9. 18 Jul '12 02:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Then you should support a national health plan and get corporations out of the business of health care altogether.
    I have yet to see anyone in government support the individual over the will of corporate America except to give it lip service. They simply don't exist.
  10. 18 Jul '12 23:05
    Originally posted by whodey
    To what degree can liberty exist within a given society if that society is dedicated to "equality"? Would not liberty necessitate the existence of "inequality"? After all, if "equality" is a predetermined construct, then ones liberty must be curbed in order to attain it. Liberty would then be viewed in large part immoral, except if it achieves "equality" o ...[text shortened]... n provided by the state because that is what we all must conform to or pay a price.
    Equality in this sense is a form or radical egalitarianism that has long been the suject of grave concern by advocates of liberty.

    That would be because the advocates of liberty tend to be the ones who most benefit from the luxuries of what they advocate, they're the ones who by virtue of being unrestrained by say mind-numbing manual labor and wage slavery, have the time to contemplate the benefits of the liberty they have no desire of making available to the general population. Liberty is an empty thing to possess when one doesn't have the financial means to throughly enjoy it, and therefore really have it in any meaningful sense.
  11. 19 Jul '12 02:13
    You are barking up the wrong tree in this forum whodey. People around here believe that we are born to support society and that people exist to serve the government. It is their greatest desire to force their view of reality on others through the use of the power of government. It is what they live for.
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    19 Jul '12 02:33
    How come you taxpayers can't afford a subscription?
  13. 19 Jul '12 02:36
    The government figures it has better uses for our money.
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    19 Jul '12 02:37
    Originally posted by Eladar
    You are barking up the wrong tree in this forum whodey. People around here believe that we are born to support society and that people exist to serve the government.
    I would say that no one on this forum believes such a thing --- people exist to serve the government?? I can't think of a single person here who comes anywhere near advocating that "we are born to support society and that people exist to serve the government". Did you have any posters in particular in mind? What a bizarre thing for you to claim.
  15. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    19 Jul '12 02:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    It is their greatest desire to force their view of reality on others through the use of the power of government.
    Based on this statement, I would presume you support the gay marriage movement, correct?

    Heaven forbid that Christians (and only a subset of Christians, at that) should be able to "force their view of reality on others" who do not share their religious beliefs.

    Right?