Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscribermoonbus
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    05 Mar '19 21:14
    @kingdavid403 said
    I know this; what message are you attempting to tell me here?
    Personally in my opinion, school is for academics, not religion. Creationism is religion; as well as evolution in a sense. Neither should be taught in public schools to children; that is the responsibility of the parents and church to teach their own children. Same goes for the evolution believers. Once one reaches college age they can explore other beliefs if they choose as a young adult.
    The message is that the separation of church and state is not a steady state; maintaining that separation requires constant vigilance because Fundamentalists constantly try to smuggle their religious agenda into law.
  2. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    05 Mar '19 21:41
    @kingdavid403 said
    Who among the evangelical right -- the tens of millions of them -- was really treating Pres. Trump that way?
    Almost all of them. Start with Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell, etc etc etc. You have to have your head in the sand to have not seen this.
    [b]alright, so you think that the American left would be totally cool with it if Evangelicals roundly refus ...[text shortened]... not voting for a gay person, was not following the constitution and separation of church and state.
    Every conservative Christian I listened to either endorsed him with reservations or outright opposed him like Al Mohler.

    I've gone into this in other threads.

    I'm afraid you're mostly just floating this over based on bad stereotypes.
  3. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    05 Mar '19 22:53
    @philokalia said
    Every conservative Christian I listened to either endorsed him with reservations or outright opposed him like Al Mohler.

    I've gone into this in other threads.

    I'm afraid you're mostly just floating this over based on bad stereotypes.
    I'm afraid you're mostly just floating this over based on bad stereotypes.
    Really? You ever watched a Trump rally ( worship service)? At least 50% of the crowd is supposed Evangelical Christians; if not 80% or more. Watch the total recent CPAC meeting off of youtube; if that does not explain it simply to you then nothing can. Their actions are appalling at these worship services of Trump; and, there is nothing Christ-like about them. They are false prophets and false Christians who are nothing but judgmental hypocrites as the Pharisees were in the days of Jesus on this earth; simple as that. Bad stereotypes my ass; you do know I'm a Christian right? If I really need to spell it out for you I will; just let me know.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    05 Mar '19 22:571 edit
    @philokalia said
    Every conservative Christian I listened to either endorsed him with reservations or outright opposed him like Al Mohler.

    I've gone into this in other threads.

    I'm afraid you're mostly just floating this over based on bad stereotypes.
    Have you seen the Trump Prophecy yet? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/03/the-trump-prophecy-film-god-election-mark-taylor

    I could fill up the page with right wing evangelical pastors who said Trump was "an instrument of God" and/or that the 2016 election was decided by divine intervention.

    EDIT: Heck, here's a few: https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2018/06/20/christian-tv-host-trump-is-gods-instrument-and-his-critics-can-get-out/

    https://medium.com/s/story/the-faith-in-donald-j-trump-23878e5b8e66

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/27/millions-of-americans-believe-god-made-trump-president-216537

    etc. etc. etc.
  5. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    05 Mar '19 23:041 edit
    @moonbus said
    The message is that the separation of church and state is not a steady state; maintaining that separation requires constant vigilance because Fundamentalists constantly try to smuggle their religious agenda into law.
    I agree 100%; except it's not all fundamentalists; many, but not all. We are saved by faith through God's grace; not by law or laws. They want to turn their religious beliefs into law for everyone else; which is 100% against the constitution and many scriptures in the Bible. They like playing God over others; it makes them feel self-righteous and powerful in their own eyes. Simple as that.
  6. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    05 Mar '19 23:39
    @kingdavid403 said
    I'm afraid you're mostly just floating this over based on bad stereotypes.
    Really? You ever watched a Trump rally ( worship service)? At least 50% of the crowd is supposed Evangelical Christians; if not 80% or more. Watch the total recent CPAC meeting off of youtube; if that does not explain it simply to you then nothing can. Their actions are appalling at th ...[text shortened]... u do know I'm a Christian right? If I really need to spell it out for you I will; just let me know.
    I still support Pres. Trump and I am a Christian.

    It is also possible to fully support Pres. Trump but also have criticisms for his personal life, right?

    Like, I would never point to him as a paragon of virtue. However, I will gladly vote for him again and continue to say that he is the best President we've had since Pres. Reagan.
  7. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    05 Mar '19 23:41
    @kingdavid403 said
    I agree 100%; except it's not all fundamentalists; many, but not all. We are saved by faith through God's grace; not by law or laws. They want to turn their religious beliefs into law for everyone else; which is 100% against the constitution and many scriptures in the Bible. They like playing God over others; it makes them feel self-righteous and powerful in their own eyes. Simple as that.
    God commanded certain things to be against the law of the Old Testament, though, right? God said that homosexuality is an abomination, right?

    What do you think about that?

    WOuldn't this imply that while it may not be illegalized or actively pursued... we should probably not recognize it as a valid marriage.
  8. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    06 Mar '19 00:43
    @philokalia said
    God commanded certain things to be against the law of the Old Testament, though, right? God said that homosexuality is an abomination, right?

    What do you think about that?

    WOuldn't this imply that while it may not be illegalized or actively pursued... we should probably not recognize it as a valid marriage.
    God commanded certain things to be against the law of the Old Testament, though, right? God said that homosexuality is an abomination, right? What do you think about that?
    God said adultery is an abomination right? God said lying is an abomination in His sight right?
    Wouldn't this imply that while it may not be illegal or actively pursued... we should probably [i]not recognize it as a valid marriage
    Maybe we should not recognize marriages that are from adultery? You know right, same as the marriage of our current illegal president whose currently married to a porn-star and ex-prostitute from his adultery? An abomination to the Lord! lol

    [Proverbs 12:22 NKJV] 22 Lying lips [are] an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully [are] His delight.

    Wouldn't this imply that while it may not be illegal, we should probably not recognize someone as a valid president who lies several times daily?
  9. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    06 Mar '19 00:54
    @kingdavid403 said
    God commanded certain things to be against the law of the Old Testament, though, right? God said that homosexuality is an abomination, right? What do you think about that?
    God said adultery is an abomination right? God said lying is an abomination in His sight right?
    [b]Wouldn't this imply that while it may not be illegal or actively pursued... we should pro ...[text shortened]... illegal, we should probably not recognize someone as a valid president who lies several times daily?
    None of what you said is on topic.

    Yes, we know you dislike Pres. Trump, and he's, adultery is condemned heartily in both the old and new testament.

    But what about the condemnation of homosexuality throughout the Bible?

    Won't you take the conservative stance and affirm that it is condemned?

    You can't just go through life hoping your anti-Trump rhetoric will give you unconditional board credit and approval.

    These people will turn on you and attack you ruthlessly for affirming this part of the Bible. Why do you otherwise cast your lot with them.
  10. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    06 Mar '19 02:00
    @philokalia said
    None of what you said is on topic.

    Yes, we know you dislike Pres. Trump, and he's, adultery is condemned heartily in both the old and new testament.

    But what about the condemnation of homosexuality throughout the Bible?

    Won't you take the conservative stance and affirm that it is condemned?

    You can't just go through life hoping your anti-Trump rhetoric will g ...[text shortened]... k you ruthlessly for affirming this part of the Bible. Why do you otherwise cast your lot with them.
    But what about the condemnation of homosexuality throughout the Bible?
    Adultery is condemned throughout the Bible. It fact, it's one of the Ten Commandments.
    Lying is condemned throughout the Bible. In fact, it's one of the Ten Commandments.
    Won't you take the conservative stance and affirm that it is condemned?
    Whats sins did Jesus die for? What sins did Jesus NOT die for? Are not all sins condemned?
    You can't just go through life hoping your anti-Trump rhetoric will give you unconditional board credit and approval.
    LOL, "Board credit and approval"? LOL yeah, that's it; you figured me out. LOL I'm just trolling about looking for approval. LOL
    These people will turn on you and attack you ruthlessly for affirming this part of the Bible. Why do you otherwise cast your lot with them.
    What sins did Jesus die for? What sins did Jesus NOT die for?
    Who do you think is saved more by Jesus; an adulterer who falls often but still maintains a relationship with Jesus; or a homosexual who falls often but still maintains a close relationship with Jesus? Who's these people?
    So which one did Jesus die for? The one guilty of adultery, or the one guilty of homosexuality? Which one is condemned?
  11. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    06 Mar '19 02:08
    Both of us know that they're both sins.

    The fact that X is bad does not make Y less bad; the fact that X may not be adequately condemned in our society does not make Y less bad.

    But what I am seeing here is someone who is going with the flow of the society and choosing to not stand up for something that is controversial.

    Maybe I'm wrong, though. Maybe you really are a stand up guy. But I feel a lot like I'm seeing somene who tries to affirm the Bible... but only the parts that are popular, and only towards targets that are popular targets.

    Feel free to level with me and tell me why I am wrong.
  12. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    06 Mar '19 02:18
    @philokalia said
    I still support Pres. Trump and I am a Christian.

    It is also possible to fully support Pres. Trump but also have criticisms for his personal life, right?

    Like, I would never point to him as a paragon of virtue. However, I will gladly vote for him again and continue to say that he is the best President we've had since Pres. Reagan.
    I still support Pres. Trump and I am a Christian.
    You may be a Christian, however, you are not following Christ or his teachings if you still support Trump as leader of our nation; simple as that.
    It is also possible to [i]fully support Pres. Trump but also have criticisms for his personal life, right?
    Actually, I could care a less about Trumps past sins. He is currently a pathological liar, period; and, so much worse. That alone should disqualify him from any Christians vote for him to be LEADER of our nation and children. That is if one reads the Bible and attempts to follow the love and teachings of Jesus.
    I will gladly vote for him again and continue to say that he is the best President we've had since Pres. Reagan.
    LOL, yeah okay. LOL Trump doesn't hold a wet match next to Reagan; and, I didn't care for Reagan all the much either.
  13. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    06 Mar '19 02:281 edit
    @philokalia said
    Both of us know that they're both sins.

    The fact that X is bad does not make Y less bad; the fact that X may not be adequately condemned in our society does not make Y less bad.

    But what I am seeing here is someone who is going with the flow of the society and choosing to not stand up for something that is controversial.

    Maybe I'm wrong, though. Maybe yo ...[text shortened]... towards targets that are popular targets.

    Feel free to level with me and tell me why I am wrong.
    But what I am seeing here is someone who is going with the flow of the society and choosing to not stand up for something that is controversial.
    That's exactly what you and most evangelicals are doing by voting for and supporting a serial adulterer and pathological liar as leader of our nation. You and them are choosing to not stand up for something that is controversial.
    But I feel a lot like I'm seeing somene who tries to affirm the Bible... but only the parts that are popular, and only towards targets that are popular targets.
    And, that's exactly what you and evangelicals are doing by still supporting the pathological liar and serial adulterer Trump to be leader of our nation and children. You only want to point to and judge the popular target of homosexuals.
  14. Subscribermoonbus
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    06 Mar '19 06:09
    @philokalia said
    God commanded certain things to be against the law of the Old Testament, though, right? God said that homosexuality is an abomination, right?

    What do you think about that?

    WOuldn't this imply that while it may not be illegalized or actively pursued... we should probably not recognize it as a valid marriage.
    The fact that certain things are condemned in the Bible may be a reason for Christians not to do those things, but it is no reason for a secular state to criminalize them.

    Some things are permitted or even commanded in the Bible. That is no reason for a secular state, no modern civilized one anyway, to permit or require the same things. We don’t sacrifice live animals on stone altars anymore, which is what Leviticus is all about. Exodus 22:18 we are well rid of.
  15. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    06 Mar '19 06:37
    @kingdavid403 said
    But what I am seeing here is someone who is going with the flow of the society and choosing to not stand up for something that is controversial.
    That's exactly what you and most evangelicals are doing by voting for and supporting a serial adulterer and pathological liar as leader of our nation. You and them are choosing to not stand up for something that ...[text shortened]... of our nation and children. You only want to point to and judge the popular target of homosexuals.
    It's interesting how you perceive Christians as being the flow of society , something that you might still have been able to argue in the eighties and nineties but was very tenable even then.

    OK, I guess if you perceive LGBTQ as an under represented and weak force in society being oppressed... I could see how you might shy away from criticizing it as it would be irrelevant.

    But David, that's a little silly, isn't it?
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