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Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    23 Feb '13 04:17
    Originally posted by normbenign on the Dorner thread
    Lincoln is the first of many Presidents who destroyed what was good about the United States. He was an evil man who caused the deaths of 600,000 Americans needlessly.

    Seemed like this was worth discussion in its own right.

    Thoughts?
  2. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    23 Feb '13 04:18
    Originally posted by FMF
    Originally posted by normbenign on the Dorner thread
    [b]Lincoln is the first of many Presidents who destroyed what was good about the United States. He was an evil man who caused the deaths of 600,000 Americans needlessly.


    Seemed like this was worth discussion in its own right.

    Thoughts?[/b]
    Sick.
  3. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    23 Feb '13 05:12
    Originally posted by FMF
    Originally posted by normbenign on the Dorner thread
    [b]Lincoln is the first of many Presidents who destroyed what was good about the United States. He was an evil man who caused the deaths of 600,000 Americans needlessly.


    Seemed like this was worth discussion in its own right.

    Thoughts?[/b]
    Some four million slaves -- that is, humans being treated worse than caged animals, raped, whipped, torn from their families, and murdered -- would probably respectfully disagree.
  4. 23 Feb '13 05:38 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Some four million slaves -- that is, humans being treated worse than caged animals, raped, whipped, torn from their families, and murdered -- would probably respectfully disagree.
    Lincoln was willing to make slavery a Constitutional right just so long as the slave states that seceded would come back into the union. Then once they declined, he decided to erradicate the slavery that he saw had helped divide the union. For Lincoln, keeping the union together was the only thing that mattered, even if it cost half a million or a million American lives.

    Do you think it was worth half a million American lives?
  5. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    23 Feb '13 05:49
    Originally posted by whodey
    Do you think it was worth half a million American lives?
    You could ask that question of any war the U.S. has gotten itself into (though the integer will vary). Was WWI worth 117,000 American lives? Was WWII worth 405,000 American lives? Was Vietnam worth 58,000 American lives? Was the war in Iraq worth 4500 American lives?

    Policies can't predict the numbers killed. Presumably if you find a cause worth fighting for, it is also a cause worth dying for.
  6. 23 Feb '13 06:47
    Originally posted by FMF
    Originally posted by normbenign on the Dorner thread
    [b]Lincoln is the first of many Presidents who destroyed what was good about the United States. He was an evil man who caused the deaths of 600,000 Americans needlessly.


    Seemed like this was worth discussion in its own right.

    Thoughts?[/b]
    This exemplifies "provocative."

    Once in a speech class we had a section on extemporaneous speech. We had one minute notice of the topic, then one minute to speak. I got assigned "Why we should fight on in Vietnam" or something that meant that (this reveals something about my age.)

    My closing remark was, "The only excuse for death is victory." I aced the class. I haven't found that statement anywhere on the internet, except in one of my own posts to RHP. I have been at once, proud, and troubled by it, ever since. So I get the conflict.

    On the topic, there were 3,950,528 enslaved in 1860, if numbers matter.

    http://www.civil-war.net/census.asp?census=Total

    But I would ask norm what Lincoln destroyed that was good about the US if he in fact said this.
  7. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    23 Feb '13 07:03
    Originally posted by JS357
    But I would ask norm what Lincoln destroyed that was good about the US if he in fact said this.
    Yeah, maybe normbenign didn't say it.
  8. 23 Feb '13 07:28 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Yeah, maybe normbenign didn't say it.
    Well I can find my 'excuse for death' quote on RHP from google (said initially by myself) but can't find "Lincoln is the first of many Presidents who destroyed what was good about the United States." I am happy to be wrong, but I can't find it there or on a forum search. It could be a simple spacing issue, I don't know.
  9. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    23 Feb '13 07:33
    Originally posted by JS357
    Well I [...] can't find "Lincoln is the first of many Presidents who destroyed what was good about the United States." I am happy to be wrong, but I can't find it there or on a forum search. It could be a simple spacing issue, I don't know.
    normbenign's statement is quoted verbatim in this thread's OP.
  10. 23 Feb '13 07:41
    Originally posted by FMF
    normbenign's statement is quoted verbatim in this thread's OP.
    I'm just reporting the results of my search. I copied the sentence, pasted it into the search, put quotes around it as I usually do when researching a quote, and searched on Google and the forum. I'm fine with being wrong.
  11. 23 Feb '13 07:53
    Originally posted by JS357
    I'm just reporting the results of my search. I copied the sentence, pasted it into the search, put quotes around it as I usually do when researching a quote, and searched on Google and the forum. I'm fine with being wrong.
    I now find a quote over on the "Waco" thread that says this and is from norm.
  12. Standard member Soothfast
    0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,
    23 Feb '13 07:56
    Originally posted by JS357
    I'm just reporting the results of my search. I copied the sentence, pasted it into the search, put quotes around it as I usually do when researching a quote, and searched on Google and the forum. I'm fine with being wrong.
    http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=150682&page=3
  13. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    23 Feb '13 08:29
    Originally posted by whodey
    Lincoln was willing to make slavery a Constitutional right just so long as the slave states that seceded would come back into the union. Then once they declined, he decided to erradicate the slavery that he saw had helped divide the union. For Lincoln, keeping the union together was the only thing that mattered, even if it cost half a million or a million American lives.

    Do you think it was worth half a million American lives?
    Given the almost certain probability that a CSA would have eventually warred with the US (perhaps in alliance with another racist state like Nazi Germany) the answer to your question is surely yes.
  14. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    23 Feb '13 08:53
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Given the almost certain probability that a CSA would have eventually warred with the US (perhaps in alliance with another racist state like Nazi Germany) the answer to your question is surely yes.
    As you said, in answer to the same question from whodey, back in November 2012: "The alternative would have been the existence on the border of the US an aggressive, expansionist State based on racial superiority and committed to spreading human bondage as far as it could. One can imagine how history might have been different if such a State existed in 1941; it would have been a natural ally of Nazi Germany. 600,000 lives may well have been a relatively small investment."
  15. 23 Feb '13 09:21
    It's a peculiar kind of nostalgia. In 1860, the US was a dirt poor nation where the government trampled on human rights routinely and in an institutionalized fashion. Yet it was good back then, and not now?